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Cardano Over Coffee ☕️ with @theroberm
Recorded: Aug. 27, 2026 Duration: 2:14:17Space Recording
Full Transcription
The.
What is up? Good morning, Ryan. Good morning, Chad. How the hell are you? Good morning.
Good morning. Doing good. How about you? Pretty peachy. I just went and got my second cup of coffee,
so I'm on top of it. I'm about to go grab my coffee now. I'm actually pretty happy
that Spaces are working on the first try. I just switched over to Omarchi, which is Arch Linux. Ah.
Okay. Good. Good. Good. I thought you were just talking about the usual Twitter. No,
normally Spaces I have problems with all the time. So I was expecting to have all sorts of issues,
and knock on wood, seems to be good so far. So. Yeah, don't jinx yourself, man. Right. Oh snap!
I just read Seba's most recent post. It says after two decades of writing code,
his most popular tweet is now about deleting every single line of code I've ever written. Ah,
I mean, pretty tragic, but also a little bit funny, I guess. Oh, that poor guy.
I I need to respond with something. He said it's okay though.
GitHub backed up my code in the Arctic vault. Okay. Ah, that's brutal.
Find him a good hug GIF. Nothing too weird. Well, no, no, yeah, I'm trying not to be weird.
A lot of them are fucking weird. Lilo and Stitch. Let's just go with Lilo and Stitch.
That's not weird. What's up, Chad? I see you over there lurking. What is up, y'all? GMGM.
How is everything going with y'all? It is a fabulous Thursday. Why the hell not? Yeah,
we got a little rain overnight, so it cracked the heat dome around here.
It feels feels great outside, so I'm definitely not cranking the AC at you know seven in the morning
this morning, which is nice. Nice, nice. Yeah, a lot of our houses here don't have air conditioning
either. Probably because a lot of our houses are fucking old, so everybody uses like
the window units, like you were talking about. And I mean, that that shit gets expensive.
I think they're making it better and better. Like the the yeah, I mean, the wattage is coming down
and down, and they're producing more and more cold air than they used to.
At least it's better than a swamp cooler. Oh my god, I actually know what you're talking about.
What's up, Giovanni? See you down there, working hard.
All right, let's see what kind of crazy shit's been on the timeline. Obviously, Nepal.
Nepal's all over the fucking timeline. Have you seen those videos, Chad? Yes,
I'm actually friends with the Nepali contingent that live here in New Mexico, and Yeah, very tragic.
None of them personally affected, thankfully. But yeah, really, really dramatic footage too.
Like that's crazy. Like like from a movie. Like what do you call it? Like 2012
or whatever, where the water is just like crashing through buildings.
Hello, hello. I was on mute like an idiot. Did I rug or did they rug? No, no, no. It's just,
it's just me. I was, I was special. Here it is. I just shared it up to the top,
and it was a illustration made to kind of show how it all came down. I just thought that was wild.
Um, says seismic activity. That stuff, a glacier, all came down. Crazy. Those videos are insane.
My heart goes out to those people. I was, I did not stand a chance. See what roads get wiped out
and everything. That's wild. And I can only imagine nothing like that's happened in a long time
because those buildings have some age to them. Crazy. What else is up? Somebody talked to Miro,
so I'm just gonna ramble about crazy shit on my timeline. I'm trying to make the comment post.
Got you. I'm just gonna sip my coffee. I know Ryan went to go get his. But yeah,
I can imagine the the rain and those mountains. It's very very treacherous. Yeah,
but this wasn't from rain. This was from a glacier avalanche. Right. Also, also those.
That's just wild. I'm just thinking if it was a rainstorm, like it's pretty bad in Rio dosa
in the mountains in New Mexico. So I mean, I can imagine. Yeah. What it's like up there. Yeah,
or better yet, we went to we went to Oaxaca. It's the southernmost state in Mexico.
A couple years ago, and we actually got there shortly after a hurricane,
and the the damage from the flooding is just insane. I can only imagine living in a place like that,
but at least like in that area, it was like around Puerto Escondido. They know
they're going to be hit by hurricanes. That's why my mom chose where we live at in New Mexico.
She's like, it's like super flat. We live like on top of a like a mesa, like a plateau. So even
if it rains, the water just goes right off, and it's so dry, it just soaks right up. She said,
"I will never live by a river, or don't ever do that." You know, like because they do flood,
and might not be this year, might not be ten years from now. They may not have flood in 150 years,
but one day that river will flood. I mean, I'm sure there's some wisdom to that.
I still want to live on an island, though. I I do live at the top of a hill, a very big hill,
which has its ups and downs. Particularly when you have to walk down to the mailbox.
Epoch has arrived. Oh, you're too kind. Too kind. He walks on a flat mesa too. A flat mesa. Yeah,
a flat mesa, five thousand feet in the air, but yep. Which is even better.
That means the water flows right off, goes five thousand feet down before it starts flooding
your living room. Yeah, we don't. We're in Colorado. We don't have floods. We have droughts.
So that's what it is. What it is, y'all. What's up? Well, it's evidently National Dog Day,
so everybody's sharing pictures of dogs. I thought that was yesterday. I don't know.
I'm still seeing it, so I'm rolling with it today. It's some other day in some other country.
Everywhere, so yes, I'm rolling with National Dog Day. I shared a picture of my dog,
where my daughter tied him up to a boogie board
and was attempting to have him help her surf across the grass. Dogs are great.
Are you even there, you pop? It's quiet. What did you say? I said you're too quiet. Well, I'm still.
I haven't had coffee, so this is pre pre coffee. Unfortunate for you. I know.
I need to get going on that. You know what else is unfortunate, Sebastian? That poor man.
What did he do now? Oh, just how Fable nuked his system yesterday. Oh, I saw that. That's. I mean.
Bad. Serves him right. You're an ass. No, he was playing in a mixed environment. Obviously,
you're building some crazy shit. You do it on an isolated machine, not your actual dev environment.
The actual security advice to people is to not install Claude bot on your machine.
You don't just install all the AI tools on your one machine. That doesn't make any sense. Oh,
I missed you. Yeah, yeah. My empathetic bone is not the largest. Oh boy. Okay. Yeah.
I saw the most ridiculous advertisement, and I only saw it because I think Time responded to it.
This guy is selling space on his backpack for advertisements. Good luck with that. Yeah, yeah.
Has he has he applied to the Draper University program? I don't know, but sounds
like it needs scaling and a different product. I mean, unless he has a twenty foot backpack,
like what? What are we talking about here? So he says there's nine spots.
There's the top flap as the big spot, and then you know if you're walking behind him,
there'd be like four squares underneath it. But if you were in walking towards him,
he's also selling two squares each on the shoulder pieces. Whatever that thing is, I can't.
Who is this person? Why would we give a shit about this person's backpack? I'm not following.
I don't think we would, but I just saw it and I thought that was fucking hysterical
because it was on Twitter and shit on Twitter is hysterical. Oh, that's fair. Let's see.
I will find it. Here it is. Shared it to the space. If his backpack is literally not a front
and back billboard taped around him, I'm out, dog. I I shared it to the space. Go check it out. Oh,
this looks shitty. This this looks like a friggin' intern AI made most of this nonsense.
The backpack looks shitty. The squares are small. You couldn't see shit.
And there's not a giant billboard on the back. I don't. I can honestly say from experience,
like I have a Ferrari backpack that like clearly advertises that it's a Ferrari backpack,
and most people don't know it's a Ferrari backpack. That's funny. The website says
that I walk through New York every day with a backpack on. He's like cash in on this shit. You
and six point five million other people. Literally, he's like,
I'm the only one smart enough to charge you for it. Also, no, he's not smart. This person's a moron.
The number of people who want this, if anybody says yes, then he's not the moron.
If anybody said probably, he will probably spend more on AI vibe coding this nonsense than
on the first purchase. People in New York don't care. People, that's like that's like saying
I'm going to take a billboard to the place where no one cares and no one even looks at you.
No one looks up. Everyone's looking down or in their headphones. This is the worst idea. Absolutely.
But I love it when influencers like try to stream like something in New York City
and they're like trying to get people's attention and ask questions. And like ninety percent
of people just blow right past them. They're not talking to you. You mean so not interested.
Like there is no city on this planet that you mean less to people than New York City
and like what your backpack says. Oh, that's some creativity, though. Oh my God,
the first comment is time. So are they embroidered on? Yeah, that's the only reason I saw is
because she responded to it. Oh my God! Yeah, he's got a guy who'll do it for him.
He did say it was permanent. So, okay. Fun fact: Embroidering is not permanent.
That's just stitching. But I don't know. Maybe gets it tattooed. Who knows?
I'm sure somebody sold their body tattoos before. I mean, your brand Adam did that one
in fucking Berlin. So, I mean, this idea is, I guess, better than the other idea that's quoted here,
which is I'm selling ad space on my MacBook, ten sticker spots on the lid, live auction,
fourteen days. Um, we should try to remember to catch that in fourteen days. See how it goes, dude.
The economy is in terrible shape. If people think that they can advertise from their backpack
and their laptop. No, no, I've. Well, I mean, so I do have pins on my backpack,
and I didn't know this was a thing, but evidently people exchange, like, trade these things.
So I was in a restaurant in Mexico, and the waiter was like, "Um, I got a pin,
and it was a pin from the restaurant, just like the pins on my bag." And he's like,
"I'll trade you this one for one of those," and I was like, "Well, it depends. Like,
which one do you want?" And he wanted like my one of my generic hiking ones. I was like, "Deal." So,
I mean, people are actually looking, I guess. Yeah, he totally took a free pin from work
that gave it to you, so that he could get something. Um, but I mean, I liked
business model steal from your business. Well, and again, the pin that he picked wasn't
of any value. It came in a set with like four other pins that were just like generic hiking pins.
No, I get it. You you won. Yeah, totally. You won, and he won. The restaurant lost.
The restaurant lost. Well, did it because now I'm walking around with the restaurant pin on my bag,
and evidently, this is like prime real estate. Is it a Duncan Tanner one? That's right.
You should have handed him a contract. Meet like turn around with the contract saying
like we will wear we will wear this all over the world, going to multiple blockchain conferences
for small fee. That's true. I mean, I I am giving them like some global representation.
Gonna hook up with Lily and be like, "Hey, evidently I'm an influencer now too.
" I wonder how that the the Jason Appleton paying for D rep focus is going. I don't know.
Is anyone paying ten grand to get a review of their proposal? I don't know if anybody's paid
Jason Appleton ten grand for a review yet. Oh my god! Yeah, I'm with Chad.
I think people are down bad. They're down bad, and that's why this is happening. Of course,
of course. They're sitting at home with their AI, being like, "I'm broke and stupid and poor.
How do I make it not this way?" And then they're like, "You should sell your backpack." He's like,
"Okay, build build me the website for it." Like I said, we'll just have to follow up
on that laptop auction for, would you say, two weeks from now? Yep, fourteen days. Yep.
And are they specifying the size stickers? Are there any restrictions on the stickers?
It's the same. Yeah, I might ask like Kyle Solomon to come up with a sticker idea. I mean,
it's just funny because we're also like so many people work from home now. Like,
I can't even guarantee that you're taking that backpack, like, or your laptop into like
any public place that anyone would even notice. Fair, fair. But, but what what do I know?
I'm not I'm not a Draper VC. Yeah, can I can I chime in in defense of this poor guy that
we are massacring? So, like, like I've seen twice something that it made no sense to me,
and then they made money. Like one is, which maybe like this guy was inspired by this other guy.
I think it was late last year. He got married, and he sold spots in his suit.
For like I don't know thirty companies, you could buy a spot in his suit,
which makes a little bit more sense because he's sort of like an influencer kind of guy,
and he will publish then the pictures of his wedding around. So it's a little bit of sounds
like he's a very patient bride. Yes. Yes. And then there was this was this this other German guy
that recently he published a website. I don't remember exactly the domain, but I don't know.
But it was a .dot lol website where you will you can just buy. There was a ranking,
and you could buy your way into being the number one. So, like, it starts at zero,
and if you put one one buck, you get to buy the number one spot,
and then everyone everyone else needs to buy for two bucks. And in a matter of like three
or four days, the highest bid was like seventeen thousand, and this because.
Because the companies that were bidding, just because the virality of the website in like four day,
the four days they were in the top five, they will get more impressions and more views, yeah,
than just paying Google. It's some weird PR, but okay, all right, I'm following. Yeah. So yeah, no,
no, not everyone was a hole, right? Because like some companies will pay like in short spans
of time. So if you bought the first place in like three minutes later, someone else bought,
and two minutes later someone else bought, you were like. Very quickly, in the in the middle. Yeah,
exactly. So those one will lost, but I I saw that a couple of them were like sharing the numbers,
and if you stay there because there it it went so viral that if you stay there for like two hours,
and your customer acquisition cost was I don't know how much less than two hundred dollars,
you you were may hold hold and and you will actually earn money, something like that. That is wild.
I don't believe any of that. Enter a script of Epoch. Yeah, sorry, resident skeptic here.
Let me ask you. I'll bite. I'll bite. What's the name of the website? I'm look. I will look it up.
I'm. I'm. I'm looking it up. So so it didn't work because you don't even remember. Yeah. I mean,
here. Outbeat. Outbeat. Lol. Outbeat that lol, and there is one guy that spent
twelve thousand dollars to appear there. I will share. I don't know how to share the tweets
in the conversation. Let's see. I'll your speaker so you can. If it's already,
is it already on a tweet or no? I'm I'm on on the tweet. Yeah, just share in the bottom right
of the tweet. There's the little up arrow coming out of a tray to like share it. You click that,
and then you scroll to the bottom and all the way to the right, and you'll see like share
with Cardano over coffee. Oh, amazing! I get that. I get that a lot. Oh boy. Okay, that was good.
No, but I mean, I I know I know I'm a skeptic, but I just like when people show off like oh we have
this huge purchase like I'm born in the time of the blockchain era like the amount of projects
I've seen where people will launch their thing then buy their own thing paying themselves
so they lose no money but they get a nice transaction on the timeline and they're like look at
this shit we're hopping the whales are interested and it's like you're patting your own bags
and losing no money but you know I'm just jaded from years of pain. Yeah, come tell me I'm wrong.
I don't know. Like this, this seems pretty legit because this guy Thibaut Maker is not the creator,
and I've been following this guy for years already. And he's pretty transparent
with his like accounting. So I think at least he sent twelve thousand for sure.
And the the original poster was today. He was saying that their merchant of commerce,
which they handle, it's sort of like Stripe, Polar, I think it is, sort of like Stripe,
but they handle your taxes and invoices and stuff. They they told him they have one day
and they will stop processing payments for some reason and and he was like looking into maybe exit
or like or moving to Stripe or stuff like that but Stripe doesn't allow this kind of websites
where you don't provide a service you just sell advertisement advertisement that's not allowed on
Stripe okay it's it's very interesting all this you have to be lucky of course because like there's
no Other way of actually make it like after this guy, there were like fifty that probably
that they fifty creators created the alternatives to this option. Like it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was like in two days, it was flooded. All right, I mean that's different.
It's not something you will be proud, I guess, because you're not creating value for the world,
but at least you're making money. Yeah, it depends on what you're looking at. If you're like, hey,
look how much money I made in a day. Um. All right, more power to you. That's kind of cool.
So they're they're like, basically, they have a product to increase your mentions
in AI search results. Yeah, that's I guess the the product at its core, which is an actual product,
not a backpack. So this this is this is already better. Um. Wow. Okay. Well, today I learned.
Thank you,
Rob. Yeah, I mean, he's here to educate us on something else, but this shit's still funny.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. Um. Yeah, I don't know.
It's it's crazy how you if you get a like if you struck gold for like three days,
you like your whole situation can change drastically. Oh yeah,
oh yeah. As long as you get out on time before everything crashes.
I like this guy's post. Actually, it's like second sentence is like maybe I'm dumb
and I lost my money. So this guy just started this a few days ago.
I'd be really curious to like follow these top ranking and see how their business fluctuates.
Yeah, I don't. I don't think it's going to be like a long-lived thing. You can you can pivot, right?
You get you you have attention, and maybe you can pivot into something sustainable. Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, but most likely it's going to die in like one week because like people will be stopped.
I mean, they have traffic because it's funny
or impressive or surprising. Yeah. That's funny. All right. Um. Let's
see. We're gonna have our guest soon. It's Robertino. Spoiler, haha. So if anybody needs a minute,
go get your coffee, whatever. Robertino is gonna tell us about how he's gonna make everybody's lives
easier. He's gonna make onboarding easier. He's gonna make developer lives easier.
Everyone's gonna come to Cardano because of Robertino and his simplicity. No pressure, anything,
Robertino. Hi, Robertina. Would you like to introduce yourself and counter anything I say? Yes,
I think I think we are promising a little bit. No, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Christina,
for the intro and and for having me. Yes, so I don't think I can pull that off by myself,
but I think I can help a little bit, especially with the DevEx part, which is what I'm
most interested in and what I've been working on for, I mean, for years, really, because before.
Working as a as a PM of this and tech lead, I mean, I'm doing a little bit of everything,
so I'm just I'm everywhere. I'm pushing code and having meetings. I'm doing everything,
but before actually trying to solve or trying to improve the Exin Cardano,
I suffered for like five years as a dev developer when Plutus v1 came out,
and then as a teacher of it and like one of the main Endpoints of onboarding on the technical side,
developers, as part of the education team, like working on the Plutus Pioneer program
and teaching at university and stuff. So I, I sort of like I suffer the problem firsthand for
so many years, and I'm super, I'm super glad I got the opportunity to actually try to solve it,
to at least give it a good shot of improving stuff, right? So yeah. I'm proud of what I'm doing.
Independently, if I if I go viral and make millions like others, if you do,
just don't forget about us little people. And absolutely, I expect to go out for a couple drinks.
So, all right, Robertino, let's let's back up a bit. This was in part funded by
the developer experience proposal, right? Yes, this is one of the main workstreams.
Talk a little bit about that, and then we'll really get into Cardano and it.
Because I think everything overall you're doing is pretty awesome and helpful. Yeah. Thanks.
So the Cardano Devex proposal, or now it's an initiative, I believe, was funded,
paid by the treasury. It tries to be an all-encompassing approach to fix developer experience,
not for a specific tool or a specific profile of developer, but for Cardano as a whole.
So it's very holistic from the point of view that we're not saying, "Hey,
we're going to build a new on-chain language; it's going to be better than any other language.
" So instead of that, it's more like, "Okay, let's see what's there. Let's see what what
everyone is building." And let's try to interconnect their own the toolings that other builders
are working on, so everything is more uniform. So because depending on what are the first thing
you encounter in Cardano, you can say, oh, Cardano is it wasn't that bad, or you can say, oh my God,
Cardano is awful. Nothing works. Everything breaks. The errors are unintelligible. So well, I mean,
I think you're touching on a big point here, and this is something we've heard people talk about:
is even when you're in the ecosystem, You may not know what's already out there. You've got an idea.
Maybe you are looking for something, a little piece, so you don't have to write it all yourself.
Or maybe you just want to see if this idea has already been put out there.
And and that's a huge part. We we need something cohesive like that that people can refer to,
that others know to go and update, and people know like when they're coming in,
I'm going to check this out. This is going to give me some guidance. Yeah, yeah,
and it's not easy to find everything because we're so decentralized. And if I mean the core.
The core builders, like the top ten, top twenty companies that belong Cardano, they knew each other.
They know each other, but there are so many satellite teams of like one
or two engineers that they are interested in Cardano. They they want to solve
this little niche problem or whatever, and they never get picked up by the rest of the community.
They don't have enough connections. They don't know enough people. They are not noisy enough
because they're shy. They're just introverted engineers. And in those in those They disappear into
the void, right? Yeah. Sadly. Sadly, because those could be assets, huge assets in the future. Um.
So yeah. And when I started looking at what are all the tools that a developer could interact with
in theory, if they really, really, really look into every tool available,
I was imagining there was going to be around. 80, 60 tools, and after a month and a half of search
and stuff, I found currently 269 tools. And this is just what you found. This is only what I found,
and I filtered. I filter away things that are not developer facing. So, like lace is not there,
right? Because that's user facing. Right. Right. And there's so much work wasted because, like,
they will work on something. The some a couple of engineers will work on some solution.
It will work for four months, but then they won't get funded. It will be hard to integrate with
other tools. Things happen. They move on, and then it becomes like a stale repository somewhere
in the. Cloud of Microsoft's cloud in GitHub. Yeah, and I mean, when we think about it,
and it's like a small project, a one-person project. You have to understand this is not
how this person earns their money, so they must do something else. And you can't help it
if they get pulled away because, again, they were the only one working on it, right? Yes, exactly.
And also, it's not—it's not that they are at fault or anything. Is that right? Like exactly,
like they have—they do whatever they think they they can do. They because like open source is also
pretty selfless. Kind of endeavor, but the the worst part. I mean, it's a very one of the bad parts
about this is that that tool may never get used by other people outside of their little bubble
of the creator. But then another big issue is that we have another like the rest of the ecosystem
never finds out that that tool existed, and they recreate the same one,
and they also are living in a little bubble, so no one knows about their tool either.
And then another one recreates the same tool, and we have like twenty-seven transaction builders.
Right. Right. Uh huh. Uh huh. I I went through a similar discovery with Catalyst because I thought
I really wished we had a calendar for certain things where I could go and look
and see what was happening, and I was like, let's see if there's a calendar that's ever been made,
and there are multiple calendars made, and people didn't know about them.
Some of them had already gone away, and people were still creating new calendars, and I was like,
this is insane! Like we fund projects without even looking to see if their idea
was already somewhere else. Yeah. And it and it's really hard because like there there there's a mix
of incentives as well, right? Because like on one side maybe you don't know there's
another calendar, or maybe you see that there's a calendar and you say okay, but this is like stale
or old or I will approach it differently, so I wanted to create my own version instead of
like trying to talk with the existing calendar owner and see like hey can we work together in this?
Because if you say hey can we work together, maybe the other person will get.
The new funding instead of you, so there is also. To be fair, I I definitely want to give credit
to what you said. That a lot of times people didn't know. I've I've definitely heard that as well.
Adam with the hand up, did you want to talk about anything on this? I mean, yeah,
like this goes right to the heart of the Cardano ecosystem, where we've been
historically super proud of our open source software, but I would argue that we haven't been
open source, but source available because everybody is individually incentivized
and paid to work on their own thing. How many Cardano projects, aside from Blink Labs, Christina,
have ever actually put up like a good first issue and welcomed an outside contributor
to actually make a patch and become a contributor and have
a open source contributor payment program? So there's no money in me fixing Robertino's DevX. Just
like there's no money for Robertino to just work on Cardano Foundations Developers. Cardano. Org.
So we're really talking about more of the same here because we're again reinventing the wheel
of trying to provide people a smooth onboarding process, but we're paying somebody else to do work
that somebody else has already done, and the cycle continues. There's always going to be like
edge cases, and unfortunately, I'm going to talk about Blink Labs again, but that's my experience.
When TX Pipe started talking about what became Demeter, it wasn't a novel idea to us.
We had actually started working on something comparable. They were further along.
They are our our colleagues, our friends. You know, we're not going to just by nature.
We're not we're not like that. We're not going to try and snipe somebody. But instead,
we talked with them about it, and we actually ended up partnering on it.
And we are part of the back end of Demeter as well. So I I see what you're saying. I agree,
and I think we need to try. More often to see if there's any way that we can truly collab
and go in on something instead of directly competing with each other.
There's always going to be differences, you know, like programming languages, stuff like that. Okay,
I respect that. That's not always going to be. That's not always going to work. But whenever we can,
I love to see the collaborations. Yeah, I agree, and I and I think maybe we can find a way.
I'm not an incentives expert, I. But maybe maybe there is a way to sort of maybe normalize.
Or incentivize in an economical way, because that's the easiest level. Level, of course,
you want as a developer, you want to work in things you are proud of, or things you think
they should be worked on. But besides that, you need to pay the bills.
And if there is some incentive to, instead of creating your own alternative thing,
to like contribute to existing things that the community overall finds useful,
that could be like a huge step in the right direction. But at least we can normalize.
That it's not like this team builds this product. It's like the Cardano community
overall can contributes to this, and these people specifically are being paid
because they were deemed to be good contributors, whatever. But yeah, I don't know.
I'm just maybe we can figure something like that out. I mean, like on my,
we're we're all still trying to figure it out, and um, yeah. I mean, Blink Labs. We do have our paid
open source contributor program, um, where people who you know kind of show what they can do,
work on a couple issues, talk to us about it, we'll consider them for a monthly payment
for continuing to work on different bugs and issues with Blink Labs, um,
and I think that is a. That is just the way of open source. That's really how I look at it.
And from there, we have actually hired people. Now they are full time employees
because they've come through that pipeline. We saw what they were capable of.
We're able to kind of help train them a little bit and really get them up to the speed
we were looking for. And they just became the most natural fit. So I mean,
this is what I would love to continue to see happen. It's just it's it's an edge case.
Not all of them work like that, you know. Yeah, I mean, I guess my fear is.
Is is Robertino's new DevX platform going to become outdated as soon as Catalyst
or the Treasury no longer funds it? So now, just like the 280 plus different JavaScript libraries
that we have, we'll have three, four, five hundred different DevX tutorials
and walkthroughs that become stale and outdated over time. You know, Algolands DevX experience
has existed for at least four or five years and has far surpassed anything in the Cardano ecosystem,
and nobody has just bothered to point an AI at it and be like, copy this, but do it for Cardano.
Similarly, Polkadot's OpenGov existed way before we went and rebuilt the wheel with GovTool.
It seems like we feel like we're all magic special snowflakes in Cardano,
and we refuse to learn from other ecosystems and people that have already done things before us
and established how this could go. And it always falls back to who gets paid, you know,
which is why we end up selling body or backpack or laptop space, I guess,
because everybody's trying to just survive. I definitely feel we've got to a point in time too,
though that it's just a weird point in time. Like the fact that you can do that,
nobody's ever thought about that before. It never would have flown before,
and now I'm willing to bet somebody's fucking paying for these things. Also, yes,
I did get a an end maker tattoo on my body permanently in Berlin. I know.
I wasn't gonna call out what it was, but but I I didn't actually get paid for it because I gave
all the money to the tattoo artist. So there is that. Wow, that's that's impressive.
That's the that's dedication to the ecosystem. Yeah, can can before we move to to Cardano,
I need can we? I I agree with with Adam just said about like yeah, but then like what
after what happens after the money runs out, which is a huge a huge in maybe the number one question
because it's not that Cardano doesn't have software available, is that a huge chunk of that software
is now useless because like maintainers are not maintaining it anymore. So and and I agree, Adam.
For example, that the the example you did you you made about the this DevX platform
to onboard developers. If I were to build like an alternative platform,
it will be like a very bad idea because of what you just said. Like as soon as I run out of money,
or maybe not as soon as it, but like shortly after, if I cannot maintain myself in some other way,
it will go stale. And and also I will be competing with existing solutions because yes the the CF
already has one platform and there are like Mesh has its own onboarding Aken website has
its own onboarding so there's there is some not some there is a lot of fragmentation in in that side
and that's why I'm not creating an alternative platform. I'm actually doing PRs to
CF Developer Portal. We are working with the CF team because the whole idea is
let's just improve what it's already like. The CF Developers at Cardano.org is the URL with
over thirty thirty something. I don't know right now, but when I checked it, I I did the stats
and it was like thirty seven percent of the traffic that is not affiliated with Cardano from before.
So newcomers go through the Developers at Cardano.org. So if I create something else,
I will I will try to steal from that traffic so people go through my onboarding instead of theirs.
Now that's fair because I've heard people say these things before, especially like if you're new
coming to Cardano, the Cardano Foundation would make you by name alone would make you think this is
the place I would go to, the source of truth, and all this stuff. Same thing with the website
Cardano.org. I can see where people would naturally make that assumption just by the name. Yeah,
and and. So, because of that, like before, this was late 2025. I met with the people
that are maintaining, like with Bora and and others that maintain the.
The platform developers at Garden. Org, and we made a plan. We say, okay, what needs to be?
This is from my point of view. Everything is in issues and in pull requests. So,
like you can take a look at that my past. So, what what needs to be done? So, the portal,
which is the number one onboarding, is the most effective as possible. It actually onboards.
We don't lose people as soon as they arrive. And they actually like get through the pipeline
and become productive in Cardano. And we created the plan based on that.
And this was before we presented so the the actual the the the proposal.
This was part of the proposal. It's a huge part of the proposal. And the the others
the other work streams work similarly. We don't want to create alternatives to existing things.
We just want to make everything more smooth and interconnect existing toolings. Makes sense. Yeah,
I love it. Adam with a hand up. Yeah, Robertito, like hit on something that
I wanted to mention a bit ago, but didn't remember, which is how much of this DevX problem that
we have is because we're obsessed with giving all of our tooling cutesy names or weird made up.
Oh my God! Yes, you know, quasi mythological names that don't describe at all what the thing does,
and then nobody's actually like optimizing even their GitHubs, let alone their marketing pages
for SEO. To where, when you search for things like we're nowhere in in the search results
because nobody knows what a a dolos or a dingo or a aiken or or a mesh is. Yeah,
like what does that have to do with Cardano and developing on it? Yep,
that's that's a good like callout. Maybe maybe every every dev team should have like a marketer
there or some someone with experience actually selling. No, I mean, I'm I'm actually really glad
that Adam called Blink Labs out because I've been thinking the same thing
with Sunday's recent announcements. I kept having to go back and look and see what Sugar Rush was
and Gummy Worm was, and I'm laughing. I know you know Blink Labs were not any better
with you know Adder and our Dingo and oh yeah, they're not descriptive at all, man.
We need like a translator. So I can help maybe because my only the only two things that
I'm working on that will have its own name. One is called Cardano Init.
Which I hope is clear enough, and the other one is called Contracts Library.
So it's like it has zero fluff. It's boring, but hopefully, if you if you in the future just write
Cardano Contracts Library, it will show up. That would be lovely and descriptive. Yeah,
just for the record too, though I'm I'm equally as guilty. Like I always come up
with some stupid code name for a new project and and get a cool marketing graphic
and everything else, but then nobody knows what the heck it actually is. So you know,
Cardano Go Node tells me right off the back. Cardano Node, Cardano DB Sync
tells me exactly what it is. But yeah, a lot of these weird names are are just confusing. I think.
So good job on Cardano and it and Add Cardano contract library to it. Just just put it
right out there in the front. Go for it. I mean, I I am absolutely as guilty,
and I think it's so telling of us because we get on these trends. You know, I like mythology,
so I'll come up
with all these names that have like some mythological alignment, and and nobody else knows that.
So yeah, the the one thing that could be a problem now is coming up with a. Logo for Cardano needs
in Cardano contracts or in contracts library. It's a yeah. I don't know.
I don't know if they deserve a logo to begin with. Maybe they won't have a logo,
but it would be cool if there's like a landing page. It's the Cardano logo with a little play icon
over the top of or a corner of it, and it's the Cardano library with little docs,
like a little file icon on it, and you're done. Don't overthink it. Done. If you
if you can create the PR, I'll I'll accept it. All right, I'm gonna go vibe code some some logos.
I'll be right back. Yeah, yeah, too funny. All right, Robertino, let's let's talk a little bit more
about Cardano and it. Yeah. So, um, we were talking about the overall context. So there are
several workstreams in the in in the whole proposal. One has one deals with the the docs onboarding,
which is what we are working with with Bora from the CF and other people from the CF.
We are trying to improve that part by making it more. By sort of like making
it more tooling agnostic, and so it works for every tooling, and it can serve as an onboarding
for independently or whatever you want to use. And then like Cardano library, a contracts library,
which is sort of like the same way. It's like an open-sampling like library for Cardano,
which I like. The idea is to once we finish, the high assurance team from IO will formally prove
the properties of those contracts. So once that's done. Anyone that has an alternative on-chain
or off-chain implementation, as long as they they comply with the formal the specification,
they can be part of the library. So that's also sort of like tooling agnostic-ish. Of course,
like ninety percent or more, ninety-nine percent will use Aiken for now. Maybe not in the future.
I don't know, but doesn't matter because it will work either way. And this Cardano init tool,
it goes with the same philosophy. Like I want to have a standardized way for you to get started with
your project. Independently of which tool is popular, which tool you like,
what's your your programming language or infrastructure that you prefer,
like whatever you want to do, I don't care whatever tool you want to use, you go to Cardano in it
and it's there and it will work and it will interconnect with the rest of the tools seamlessly.
That's the objective. I love it. Do we have any questions? So yes, anybody? Do you raise your hand?
Epoch, I'm surprised you're silent. Go ahead, Roberto. Okay, so what what I what
I'm trying to achieve with Cardano in it, like that's like the objective. In the future,
like for example, if we have this standardized way, we avoid several problems that
we are currently suffer. One is that popular tool that some tooling that were popular in the past,
they are not longer popular. They are not the number one choice. Or the second or the third,
but they are still picked up by LLMs. They are still picked up by newcomers that they don't know.
They can use this other new tool that is way better, but because they don't, same as before,
the new tool doesn't rank us higher when you Google Cardano smart contracts or whatever.
So they don't know. And I up until last month. I've been having people writing to me DMs asking me
how to learn Haskell because they want to write Cardano smart contracts, and I'm like, no man,
no no no, don't do that to yourself. Yeah yeah yeah, that's not good anymore. So um, so yeah,
this is sort of like what I'm trying, like one of the issues. If we have one tool that just creates
your your like your boilerplate in a way that is agnostic to the tool, it doesn't matter if the
if Aiken is the number one language forever. Or if like one year from now it's Pebble
and no one uses Akin, I don't care. Like you go to Cardano in it and you in it and you choose Akin
or you choose Pebble and it will just work. You picked based on your criteria. Exactly.
And and then another thing that Cardano in it does is like what you see is just it creates
a project. That's what you see. But what happens under the hood, sort of like when you run like
a new like Next JS or create React app or whatever, you just create the project. But under the hood,
what it's doing is it's a lot of wiring. You're we are connecting. On chain with the off chain,
we are connecting the off chain with infrastructure, with Devnets and stuff like that.
We are encoding tribal tribal knowledge that only a few developers have of
how things should like be built. That sort of like pre done for you,
so you don't need to understand that. And it also comes with a very specific explanation derived
based on the tools you choose. So even if you're a newcomer. You can pick up what
everything is doing, and if you are too lazy to do that, the LLM will be able to pick up
how everything works, what are the rules that needs to to comply with,
and how to evolve the protocol over time. So that was actually going to be a question
I was going to ask was with regards to like AI coding agents. Do you have something already in there
for agents to look at, something that they can process, understand what to do with? Yes,
so that's a great question. A very important question. I guess I don't know. Do we have a?
I'm super Andrew friendly. Okay, great, great. Andrew friendly girl. Now,
so the whole idea is like we we also have meetings with Giovanni that is here listening from CF
and with Bora. Hey, and Bora, where is she? Yes, she's she's here. So the CF has this set of skills
that they are working on called Cardinal Dev skills, and they are trying to.
Like pre-process documentation for you and create useful skills that are also they follow
the same similar philosophy to to how I work, which is like let's make the tool
itself tooling agnostic. Like I don't care if uses Acan Pebble or Blint,
it will it will work in any way. And so we have we have meetings. We we talked.
We we send messages in each other's and issues GitHub issues. And I actually contribute a couple
of skills and docs to them. So the whole idea is, I'm I when I generate,
I will generate files pointing to these skills. So I'm going to handle sort of
like the deterministic part and the boilerplate for the for the actual project,
and then for the logic of okay, like I need to understand how to modify this. I need to understand
how to use each tool. I don't need to re-explain everything. I just need to point my agents.
That M D file will just point to the skills. And the agent will use those skills to understand that.
So we're sort of like using each other in a way. And they, in their skills,
they can use Cardano Init to initialize a new repository and stuff like that. So
that that's sort of like how we deal with with agents. And that also does some,
especially our Dingo repo. There's a lot built into it to instruct the agent how to operate,
and it educates them why things were designed the way they were, so that they can follow
that process. And I love to see others replicating that. Just it makes this easier. Well,
now that you say it, we had one of our first external contributors to Cardano in it was Wolf,
C. E. O. Of Bling Labs, because to add Dingo as a DevNet, because now as a DevNet we have
only Jassi DevKit, and yes, we actually had four PRs from him trying to. Help overall, like patches
and improvements, and then the dingo as a DevNet. I love it. So super, super happy about it.
Maybe next release we'll have a dingo as a DevNet as well. Awesome! Awesome. I'm not surprised.
You know how Chris is. Especially hit him up on a weekend. He loves a fun project. Yeah,
maybe I should check because maybe it was Saturday, and I. Saturday, we uh we work in the morning
and let the kids watch their cartoons, and then we head out at lunch as a family. But yeah,
that's usually when he likes to work on his fun projects. His fun projects, yeah. Actually,
I I now that I just said I I do a bunch of I maybe I do more contributions like
Thursday to Sunday because I have less meetings. Than during the week, the standard week. Oh,
totally. I mean, there's definitely just days that are meeting heavy, and they don't feel
like you get anything accomplished. I make those days just for like communication
and stuff because I hate to get interrupted right after I just got into it. You know? Yeah. Yeah,
yeah, definitely. So, so yeah, that's sort of like the overview. We released our first public beta
last week. Super happy about it. It comes with several. Let me let me see because I have my repo
open right here. Three on-chain languages, three off-chain languages, one DevNet,
and all the infrastructure Cardano app can provide. Cardano app is also made by Blinklabs,
so I'm stealing your work as well. Not only not only source, it's fine. The whole intention.
So yeah, I like Cardano app deals with only with infrastructure. It's similar to for the listeners.
It's similar to Cardano in it, but only for infrastructure. So instead of repeating work,
I just consume Cardano app under the hood, and Cardano app handles all the infrastructure side.
And if I need something which I already did, I create a pull request in Cardano app,
and actually Chris accepted it like in the same day. So super happy about that. Yes, he's a long,
long live open source. So yeah, yeah, and right now ideally I would like to yeah, and we also
besides this like on chain off chain definite infrastructure we also have
formal methods because Blaster is coming to your to your theaters nearby,
and and as soon as it's ready I want it to be properly integrated. So I mean I'm having talks
with them as well because they wanted to make it also agent. You want a high level Blaster
real quick for anybody doesn't. Yes, thank thank you. So, Blaster is it's a a theorem prover
based on Lean that is specialized for extended UTXO for Cardano specifically. So,
the idea of use of Blaster is that it can if it can efficiently prove properties
of your smart your own chain smart contracts of your protocols. Ideally, I mean,
currently with the current state of of Blaster, you have to write the proofs yourself.
So you have to know Lean, you have to know formal methods. So it's quite complex, quite hard.
Complex. Yes, yes. I actually I I try to prove one of my contracts, and after several days,
I I I pinned. Romain and he took a look and he was like, "Oh, this is super inefficient.
You have to do it this other way." And I was like, "Okay, you know what? I'm just going to try.
" But in the in the near future, what they are working on is that you don't have to know
formal methods. You can just state the properties of your functions in sort of like in comments
on top of a can sort of, and Blaster will just make sure that that function complies with
those properties. If you know Haskell, like Liquid Haskell, sort of. So that's Blaster,
and it's it's going to be our first. Formal methods framework specific for Cardano, and ideally,
once we have if enough skills, please Giovanni, we have enough skills, and we enough documentation
and the the DevX is good enough. The agents could write the properties themselves.
You just need to check that the properties are checking what you want to check.
So you need to understand the state transitions of your protocol. But if you understand those,
you can read the checks that the agent is doing and say, "Okay, this is these are the invariants
that I want to hold," and you don't need to learn formal methods, which is going to be super cool.
That would be nice. Future stuff, super nice. So, and I also want that with Cardano in it.
It's not ready yet because. You need nicks, and you need like a custom setup,
and and the team told me it's not ready for like prime time. If you if you want to,
if if there are people are interested in try it out and give early feedback, please reach out.
I can connect you with the team. But we don't want to show this to newcomers
because then we'll scare them again, and they will leave again. So that's not an option. No.
So yeah, what else? Yeah, if anyone here is interested, even if you are not seasoned developer,
if you sort of have an idea of how developer works, if you ever build a simple website,
it will be cool if you try it out. You know why? The less you know, the better,
because that that will give me like a more meaningful idea of what can be confusing for someone
that has no idea about Cardano. Yeah, and my DMs are open to like. Or pull requests or issues,
everything is open, so you can just like come and pry and copy, break it, and try to modify it,
whatever, and let me know when you break it. Yes, please submit an issue. No need for PR,
just an issue is good enough. Well, so yeah, that's sort of like the overall idea. Yeah,
thank you so much. I think what you're doing is really good. Obviously,
I've been supportive of of this for a little while. Do want to open it if anybody has any questions
for Robertino? Please feel free. Raise a hand. Ask to come up. I see nothing. Well,
it takes a long time now. I was lagging stuff. All right, Robertino. What else are you working on?
Anything cool? Anything boring? Anything? Or is this enough? No, no, no. There's so many cool stuff.
I mean, everything related to work. I don't have time to do anything else. So I. That's fair.
That's fair. My hobby is like more work. One thing that I think is really cool. I mean, if if if you
if you send me loose, I can just talk about for hours about this, right?
But I don't want to just stop this. What is it? Yeah, I mean, we are we are working. I mean,
we are working with TX5 to design protocols for the contracts library. Yes. And I have a few ideas,
and I I think maybe it will be cool to run it down with the community.
I already contacted the usual suspects, which are the people working on it,
but working on on on the the The dependencies that I need, but also like this is in part
like the contracts library, contracts library library. It's intended to be use case based. Okay. So
because we we have other libraries, right? We have helpful libraries. Yeah.
We have design patterns from Anastasia Las, which is amazing. Um, but if you take a look at
how Ethereum does it, or how other blockchains do do it, is a product or Outcome-based is
like this is not. They don't tell you this is how you create a miracle tree.
They tell you this is how you create a programmable token. So and this is how you create
a stablecoin. So they they sort of give you the end result, not the abstraction
that you need to get to the end result. So that's sort of like the idea.
I want to create protocols that can be easily integrated to create real products. Oh, cool!
And we have we have two. We chosen we we have two that we are working on, and they have been.
I think they are really cool. Which is like one is to manage the settings
and upgradeability of your protocol. Everyone, every non-trivial protocol has settings,
and you can see it in GitHub. And every every Respectable or like high throughput
or protocol also needs a way to upgrade itself, which is of course, yeah, very.
It's very difficult in blockchain because everything is immutable, so you need to create like
sort of like patterns to upgrade protocols. And you need to. There, there are
several on-chain patterns you can do to like try to do that. So, and each team
in Cardano sort of creates its own thing, its own way of doing that, which we've talked about. Yes.
Yeah. So we are sort of like standardizing it. We are creating one that will work no matter how what
your protocol really does. You can just manage the settings upgradeability with that that way.
So like that's something that you don't have to. Like think about anymore.
Like you build your own your new protocol, you can assume that it's going to have settings.
It's going to be upgradable because that's done for you. That that's one which
I think is going to be super useful. And then another one is to govern that set those settings
and upgradability. Maybe with a multisig is fine. Maybe you want a DAO, token based voting, etc.
So there is also like another protocol that will handle that that can be used like sort of
like Lego. They can be used together or not. You can choose to use one or multiple together.
And then I'm not sure about this one. Hopefully, Giovanni has time to to spar with me.
Put him on the spot. Does he know about this? Yeah. I mean, now that I have it here. No, no, no. I,
I, he knows. He knows. Okay. Okay. Good. But like we, we, we have the program, programmable tokens,
CIP, and one thirteen, CIP one thirteen. Ah, that's which is amazing. My board right now. Really?
Yes. Simple thirteen contracts. I, I was talking to Thomas. Really now? Well, yesterday. Oh,
can I go on? Go on with your thing. Sorry. I mean, if if you want, whoever wants to talk about this
can do like an introduction, and then we can chat about this after that. I don't know. Go on.
Talk about your thing. Okay. Finish. Okay. So this is the this is the idea.
We have the CIP is very gen is very generic on purpose, and because the more generic it is,
the more flexibility you have to create sub standards with it. So the CIP,
the programmable standard. Doesn't provide the logic of how you will choose if you can transfer,
if you can be freeze someone's tokens, or you can transfer someone else tokens.
It just provides the framework that will make sure those rules, when you choose them, are governed,
are respected. So what you want to do to actually for this to be useful is you want to create
a substandard. You want if you want a stable coin, you will take you will take this
the the framework that is already. Builds and it's being audited, and I don't know who's who's doing
the audit right now. I'm not sure if it's the same team as before, but the CF is still
it's working on the last kinks and details. So hopefully it will be ready sooner than later.
And so that's going to be sort of like done, and you get to pick the the rules. So for a stablecoin,
for example, you can pick the issuer to be a centralized entity in somewhere that gets to create,
mint, and burn stablecoins. Then you can add transfer rules so people can freely transfer as long
as they follow whatever rule. And you can add, for example, freeze and seize. So
if the entity that is in charge of freeze and seize that not necessarily is the same entity that
mints and burns, they can say, okay, this wallet cannot transfer anymore.
And those tokens are free are freed, and they can seize. Well, so there they have you.
If you put those rules, you get to create. You get to deploy stablecoin. But I want.
What I'm thinking of doing is, instead of creating those rules, allow for free transfer always.
Don't never allow for freeze and seize, which sounds weird because like that's a huge part
of CIP 113. But if you do that, you you get to do Something very close to what Ethereum has with
automatic triggers of tokens, of token transfers, token evolutions, token transformations.
So you can have a CIP sixty nine token that it's a token that can be modified with transactions,
and you can just you can have it, and the only thing you can do is just have it and transfer it
and whatever. But then the issuer can change the properties of it without taking it away.
So you get to have something like. A native token, but at the same time,
an external entity can change the properties of it without being able to freeze it or seize it.
If we do that, for example, one use case of that will be bonds. Like you could sell bonds as this
as this kind of tokens. You can sell bonds. Anyone can buy a bond, and then it's in your wallet.
You can transfer it. You can move it. You can do whatever. As soon as the bond matures,
the Country entity whatever in charge of that bond will will transform that bond
into the underlying asset whenever you sell it, and it will still be yours.
It's going to it cannot be taken away, but it can be transformed within your wallets,
which is crazy good. I think I don't know, and that's sort of like one use case that I was thinking.
But there are many use cases like this where you want some level. Of evolution
or change in the token, without allowing anyone else to to be able to take it from you
or affected affected in a in a negative way. The problem with this is that if there is a
and like a finite set of chain transformations. So, for example, with the bond,
as soon as long as as soon as the bond matures, once it matures, like there's
no other transformation. You either sell it or you don't sell it. You can you can move it
around as well. Whatever you can do, whatever. But it will never change automatically,
like it was intended with this protocol. So the problem with that is that transferring
programmable tokens is more expensive than transferring native tokens because you have to run
the framework itself. Yeah. So the final step of this is to allow is to create what
I want to create in the library that I'm working on is to is to create An interface where you can,
once it cannot be transformed anymore, once it's finished, you can burn it
and mint an equivalent native token that is free of of this of this framework. So then,
once you reach that point, it's just a native token. It was it was a programmable token,
but when it wasn't useful anymore to be programmable, it was just converted to native token.
Go ahead, Johnny. Geo, feel free to come up if you want to. Hey, Mister Robertino,
incredible stuff that you're talking about. I had a question. So, if you can do it
for kind of a programmable token, right? Is it is it reasonable to think
that possibly it could be done for for a non fungible token as well for like a real world asset,
right? So a dynamic, a dynamically changing real world asset. So if you have a property held by
Century Twenty One, they could dynamically change some property on the property itself. You know,
like a change of ownership, or or or an addition of a barn, or something,
some attribute that could be added and and perhaps stored in a dynamic manner
for real-world asset tokenization. And then I had another question. You were talking about
the library of libraries, and I was wondering when you started talking about modules
and and reproducible stuff. I was wondering if you guys are considering using
HashiCorp Terraform for that. Yeah, good questions. So, like for the first one, it doesn't,
and you you have to provide for the framework to work, like for CIP one thirteen to work.
You have to provide your issuer, and the issuer is going to be the contract that gets to mint
and burn token, programmable those programmable tokens. So if that contract
only allows minting NFTs, you can mint NFT, programmable NFTs. If that contract allows for multiple
for for fungible tokens, you can do fungible. So it's a it's a matter of what you choose as the
as the issuer, and then for reproducibility of the of the library, luckily. The most, if not all,
of the yeah, likely all of the code in the contracts library will be um won't have like
an internal state. So there's it doesn't have infrastructure. It doesn't have state transitions
that need to be safe or anything like that. So as long as we thoroughly test everything,
we don't need we don't need to like um. Yeah, we don't need to do anything else.
We just need to know, make sure that what if if this goes in, this goes out, holds as an invariant.
That will mean that both the on-chain
and the off-chain are correct. Thanks so much. Very exciting stuff.
Awesome. So yeah, that's what the that's an order and that that's like one sub protocol
of CAP one thirteen that I was thinking of adding to the library. And besides that,
we we still are going to work on two more. So and we have we have analyzed like twenty
something protocols, possible protocols to implement. So it's not like we don't have choices,
but ideally we want to choose whatever the community prefers. So if you have opinions about what
we should implement, that's also like my DMs and the issues of the repository are open.
So anyone that has a strong opinion about what we should work on, that it's welcome,
and maybe we'll change our plans. Likely, if you have a good reason, we will change our plans
to adapt to your request. Appreciate the questions, Johnny. All right, Robertina. Um, let's see.
What are our closing remarks? How do we want? What kind of call to action do we have?
You're a developer. Please make sure your projects are on this. Yes. If you have tooling,
please make sure you you will integrate. You at least explore integrated with Cardano in it.
It should be easy. If not, just open an issue and say, "Hey, I can like it's too complicated.
You do it, and I will do it." And if you are if you don't maintain Cardano tooling,
you just you are a DApp developer or a protocol developer. Try it out. Like just like use it
and see if it fits your workflow. And if it doesn't fit your workflow, why?
And if we can make it fit. I love it. Thank you so much. All right, Chad, you still with me? Oh,
you know it. We give me a mid roll, Robertino. You're welcome to stick around,
but if you've got a meeting to go to, I understand you got a couple minutes to run to it.
Thank you so much. I do have a meeting. Thank you, Robertino. Chad, hit us with a mid roll.
Thank you for tuning into Cardano Over Coffee this morning. Your decentralized morning show
coming to you Monday through Friday, nine thirty Eastern Standard, two thirty UTC,
where we like to talk about what's being built on the blockchain. And if you're building something
on the blockchain, click the cup, schedule a spot, and we'd like to have you on,
talk about what you're building. Also, if you are a listener to the show
and want to be part of the show, be either a guest or a host, click the cup.
We are looking for hosts to fill in the Wednesday spot. We are short right now,
and Anybody that's listening can be part of the team. That's the beautiful part of having
a decentralized morning show. Also, we like to remind people to get your funds
off central exchanges. We haven't done it in a while. Put it in your self custody wallet.
We know that didn't work out so well, you know, three months ago or whatever.
But maybe it's maybe it's getting better. Put it in your put it in your self custody wallet.
It's much safer than the central exchange. And as always, thank you for tuning in.
We sure appreciate it. Also, stay true to Staple. We still got Epoque and Lighto cool.
My immediate thought: I'm not short. You're short. Go ahead. This is my thought
when you're talking about it. I'm not short. You're short. Chad's right, though. We do not have
enough coverage. If anybody's interested in being a co-host or a host, reach out to any one of us.
Let us know. We'd be happy to talk about it. Yeah. So it'd be super cool. Now more banter time.
Ryan, are you still around, or did you like run off to work? I'm still here. Sorry,
I'm eating something. I was multitasking a few other things. I'm just working. That's cool.
That's cool. So, what were we talking about online earlier? Just the usual kind
of incentives debate stuff. We were talking about min pool cost, and then went into discussions
about K and 50s, 0.3, all the different incentives things. So. The. Okay,
so with the current governance actions, there's one right now that you're referring to,
and what does it have like five or six more days left? Yeah, five days left.
So I was the original author of the PCP, the parameter change proposal for lowering min pool cost
to 75. I can see if I can find the link for that. You want to share? I'll find it. I'll find it.
No reasoning. Okay. You want to talk about it? I'll find it. Sure. Yeah.
So it's actually combined with another, I guess, mostly unrelated parameter,
which is Plutus cost model or execution units, I think. And then the reason
they were bundled together is simply because they are both things that SPOs need to vote on,
and they're presumed to be relatively non-controversial. Which, in hindsight, is maybe you know
less controvert. I mean, maybe they're more controversially thought
because there's people debating it. But I still think Mintel cost should be lowering.
It should be relatively uncontroversial, which is why I was debating it.
I feel like it's one of the easiest incentives decisions to discuss. Is how min pool cost
is not designed in a way that is beneficial to the network and is basically hurting delegators
to small pools. So basically, the way it works is, you know, if you have,
let's hypothetically say block size is 348, a bit less than that now, with a 170 min pool cost,
that means if you only make one block per epoch, your delegators are just basically lose 50%
of the rewards off the top. They can make two blocks per epoch, then it's 25%.
If you make three blocks, it goes down and down. So the more blocks per epoch you make,
the less penalized your delegators are. So it's directly hurting small pools that make fewer blocks.
So trying to get that number as low as possible is kind of the best way to level the playing field.
The side discussion to it is whether there should be any minimums at all,
which is what CIP 23 Min Pool Margin does. And it's instead of it being a a minimum fixed fee,
it's a minimum variable fee. So that way, no matter how many blocks you make in an epoch,
it's the same percentage overall. That's I guess taxed by the the stakeholder operator,
and I guess the way it was explained to me is right now that even minting one block is not
enough to cover it, right? In February 2028, it will be completely covered.
So I'm trying to remember the math right now. So it's 170 as min pool cost currently,
and I think block size is somewhere in like 290 area, our block reward. Okay.
And it's trending downward. And so if the trend continues, in about February 2028,
the min pool cost would be bigger than the block reward, which means if you make one block
per epoch, the stake blocker earns 100% of it, and the delegators earn 0% of it.
So you would literally get nothing for delegating to a small pool. At that point.
So right now you get about, I think, sixty-ish percent of your awards cut off.
That sounds like a great argument for the margin one. Right. Yeah. So the margin one is
a separate argument, and that's, I mean, there are a lot of people that think there should be
a minimum, and I guess the having the minimum margin is kind of to appease that argument. Right.
And the basis of that argument is that you know if there's no minimums,
there could be a race to the bottom. You know, everybody's going to set zero fees,
and then all the pools that are trying to make a living are going to have to lower their fees
to compete, and it's going to drive people out of business. That's kind of the race to the bottom.
Argument in a nutshell. So we did have some evidence from last time minpool cost was raised in,
I think it was October 2024. Actually, I think it was 2023. Anyways, it was a long time ago.
And as of today, two or three years ago, most pools are still at 348 minimum fee, even
though that 170 has been available for a long time. So basically, that's to me that's evidence
that there wasn't a race to the bottom. That you could totally set a higher fixed fee if you want,
and you're not going to be driven out of business. And so that there should not be danger to having
a lower minimum, or in my opinion, ideally no minimum. And that would mitigate the issue of,
you know, min pool cost hurting small pools more. At least, you know, as a stopgap until we have
min pool margin, which is levels the playing field for everybody. Which is still
at least a few months out for the. I was going to say min pool margin
is looking like maybe next year. So allegedly, Dykstra is still on track for November,
December-ish of this year, which is a bit optimistic in my opinion. So assuming that happens,
let's say that happens, we would still have to submit a parameter change. Well,
assuming SIP twenty-three is fully enabled for it, which it might not be. Hopefully it will be.
We would still have to submit a parameter change to change to set the initial parameter,
and we'd probably set min pool margin to something and min pool cost to zero in the same parameter.
Parameter change. Presumably that's what happens. So at least January, optimistically,
is as soon as we would see that. So lowering min pool cost now is a good stopgap that I guess help
hopefully stop the bleeding for small pools until we have a more permanent solution. Okay. Okay.
And I mean it, and it gradually gets us down, so it seems less shocking than going from
300 something to zero. Right, and in in the the P2P itself, I compared it to like
historically what they were, right? So if you look at what a block reward was like
in the Shelley era, it was like twelve hundred ADA or something, and then min pool cost was three
what it was three forty, maybe it was three forty, and then a percentage of that was like
twenty four percent or something, and then the block reward has slowly dwindled down all the way
from twelve hundred to like two hundred ninety right now, which just make that percentage
go up much more. So I was like, why don't we just try to match the you know the percentage?
And then I did some backwards math, and seventy five out of two ninety
ish is roughly the same twenty four percent. So That's why it's being closed. Yeah,
I saw you had also shared some IO research on this topic too, right? Yes. Yeah,
they did a they published an incentives report, kind of independent of our own work.
So we that was with the still in with the Cardano Incentives Working Group that just did a bunch
of volunteer research on this stuff. We came to our conclusions. They did some separate stuff,
came to their own conclusions, and they are mostly the same conclusions that minpool cost is
it is not helpful. It introduces civil behaviors or incentivizes civil behaviors,
and it should be removed to removed or set to zero. Nice. Well, that's some supporting argument.
Yeah, so now the, you know, of course the difficulty is socializing it and having all the debates,
finding the political willpower to get people to vote and participate in things,
and all that fun stuff. So. And let's see, where do you stand for votes on this?
We need SPOs on this one, right? Yep. Yeah. So. That's the tough one. Oh God.
It's not looking great. Also, the committee. I guess while we're in here, if you're an SPO or a DREP
and you haven't voted, please go vote on this and the committee min size proposal because both
of those are very critical. Well, it's not even—it's not the committee min size.
It's the just changing the constitutional committee, and I mean, yes, and I think maybe
that that might help you a bit because there is a strong push to get that done,
and maybe you can kind of ride on those tailcoats there. Yeah, that was kind of the intent
with submitting them together. Yeah, the new committee. Good, good, good. So,
only get their cold keys out once and vote on all the things. I know. So just to clarify for
anybody listening, there is still a government action out that has what five more days left,
I think. For the constitutional committee, there was a vote done through intersex process for people
who wanted people or groups that wanted a seat on the constitutional committee,
and three members were picked from those elections. The they received the most votes.
That has been turned into a governance action, and it just needs to be approved. However,
the biggest challenge right now is the SPO votes, and we understand SPO votes are difficult.
It's not just doing something easy. If you're on holiday, you might even not be able to do it.
But there's a a huge issue if this does not go through.
Everything in governance will basically stop, and this will be the only type of governance action
that can go through is to do this constitutional committee. The other type is no confidence,
but let's really not go down that rabbit hole. It's kind of a big deal.
If we want to see anything else done at any point, we have to do this. We could choose to do it now,
or we could start the process all over again. Yeah, to put it kind of bluntly,
if we don't see this approved in the next five days, we're almost certainly not going to see Laylas
and Dijkstra in this this year. It's going to push everything to the right.
So this is a very important thing that we need to get. It's on the critical path, right?
So for Layoffs and Dijkstra, the constitution will need updated too, at least
for the new parameters, and hopefully for some new things. And that's also going to require
a committee. Yep. So there's all sorts of stuff that needs to happen before then,
and they all require a new committee. So. Yes, so it's a big freaking deal. If you are an SPO,
if you have contact with your SPO, let's make sure that the vote has happened.
I don't care how you vote; I just need you to vote. But it would be really great if we could get
this passed and not completely halt governance and wait what, like another month? Yeah, I mean,
and then like the other question is like, if we just have to resubmit it, what's going to change?
Like, is it? I mean, it would suck if it failed just because people didn't want to show up to vote.
I mean, how do we know that they're going to show up to vote if we just do it again? Like,
we really don't want governance to stall out. So there's probably a broader question here of
how do we increase participation in the long term, so we don't keep having these battles every time
we need votes. Yep. And I mean, you're right though. If we don't get this passed now,
and we have to go through this process again, we are going to miss the September 30th
cutoff to be able to actually make the hard fork when we've when we've said we'd do it. Yep.
So that could very easily push it into 2027 instead instead of the end of 2026,
which is kind of like a big fucking deal. Yeah, ideally we, you know,
hopefully everything goes right, and we see a good amount of participation in the next five days,
we can push it over the line, and min pool costs too, and Plutus execution limits.
I'd like to see all those things. Yes. So while you're there, making sure governance doesn't shut
down, just go ahead and see if there's any other SPO matters you can vote on. Yeah.
And on the bright side, like considering the last couple months of proposals,
there's relatively few things to vote on now. Fair. Fair. This this shouldn't take you
very long to decide your stance on these few items. Please and thanks.
Do you think that maybe SPOs just don't want to be involved in this process? Um,
really hard to get SPOs to vote, and I I understand it's not convenient. Yeah,
there's a couple different points, right? So one is that maybe that's not what SPOs signed up to do.
Um, maybe they want to produce blocks, they don't really want to participate in governance.
But I think there is forget the mechanics of it, but I think there's a way to have them abstain,
auto abstain continuously, um, without having to submit a vote on everything.
I'll have to look back into that, but there's also some questions, and I actually wrote a tip
for this of just trying to ease the pain of voting as an SPO, right? Because you know,
if you have a bunch of different pools, you have to dig out the cold keys for all those pools
to go vote on a thing. And a lot of the governance tools, they don't let you just connect your.
It's not like a DRep where you just connect your wallet to a governance tool, type vote and sign it.
It's a bit more complicated for SPOs, especially with having to get their cold keys out. So exactly,
it's the cold key scenario that makes it more challenging and more intentional. Like you said,
you can't just connect to something real quick. So I did write Tip 175,
hoping to mitigate this issue, which will allow SPOs to have hot keys that they can use for voting,
and a couple other cool things. Like you can have multi-sig SPO hot keys.
You can vote for multiple pools for with one set of keys. You can basically delegate your vote
to other DRep or other SPOs using a set of keys. So if you want to follow another SPO,
it would require permission from both SPOs, but you could totally follow. So you've written this.
Where's is that? Yeah, this is Tip 175. All right. Who's talking about it? Well,
we—I think a few people from the civic community have discussed it. It already went through
the sit process and was merged. Yeah. Issue is it requires a good amount of work,
and it's not not on scope for Dykstra. So the earliest we'd see this is Euler,
which is quite a ways away. That is fair. I like the ideas, though. I think I think that deserves
more discussion too. But let's let's get through this one governance hurdle at a time. For sure.
Yeah, there's so many different things to work on, and you know, it's a little time.
And attention too. It's really hard to just—I mean, it's increasingly hard with the governance thing
and Cardano to just, you know, socialize an issue and get enough people behind it
and understanding how it works and the trade-offs and getting the willpower to get things included.
And speaking from the incentives perspective, incentives are notoriously bad at this, right?
Because people have been calling for incentives changes for like five years now. So, Sip 23
and Sip 50, which are finally implemented for Dykstra, were both five-year-old Sips,
and that's how long it took to get them implemented. So, hopefully, it doesn't take this long
for something like Sip 175. Or other, you know, improvements coming down the pipe. So, yeah,
seriously. But I mean, just going through with a proposal period, going through with Dingo,
trying to talk to people, make sure we answered everybody's questions. It was, it was exhausting.
So I can imagine you have an even greater hurdle to overcome with it. Yeah, I mean,
a lot of it's you know debating incentives with people. We didn't spend quite a long amount of time
in the Cardano incentives working group, like. Researching, reading papers,
trying to run simulations, fork the University of Edinburgh's simulation tool, doing all the things,
and then a lot of it is like, you know, second guessing ourselves and making sure
that we understand things correctly, and then trying to discuss it with people and socialize issues
and see if we can advocate for improvements. So, it is occasionally, sometimes tiresome,
and you know, suffering from burnout from time to time. But you know, I think
we're finally seeing some, some effects. So it's, it's paying off. I love that. Good morning
or afternoon, Canerik. Hey, I heard about talking about SPO voting and Super One Seventy Five.
Great job on that one, Sir. I certainly tried to help out there, moving this forward. You know,
not only me as a private, but also as part of beyond the HMG report. It came out clearly, you know,
that the largest friction there is from SPO voting participation is, you know, a security concern.
Anyway, how are you guys doing? What what you guys cooking on? Doing well. I mean,
just having a good Thursday morning here. We had Robertino out earlier to talk about things
he's working on with the Developer Experience project. Specifically, he's got a beta out
for Cardano Anit, and he was sharing about that. We talked a little bit
about the Constitutional Committee governance action that we desperately need SPOs to vote on,
and how you know maybe that'll help because that one is such a desperate need that
these other proposals might see some SVO votes while they're already out. Yeah, great work,
great work. Yeah, I just came up from from civics meeting, you know, and we have how'd your meeting
go? Oh, it was a very, very good one. It is as always in the civics we have some like full out
Dejan governance mode for one hour. Love it, love it. But yep, yep. Because believe it or not,
you know, governance is actually important. It's actually like people are so like you know.
Engaged with price, you know, and concerned about treasury withdrawals, dumping the price,
and and but I must say at least like if if the Ada owner like really wants to have like um uh
what is called you know confidence in the Kanano ecosystem, at least we must have SPO voting,
we must have engagement from D reps, and this is actually like the the confidence grows on us,
you know, when we participate. So and I was at Intersect Monthly yesterday.
I showed them how you know how we can use See if it does explorers to redelegate to another D rep.
We got updated on the kind of new foundations, you know, educational tools there for SPOs,
so that you know SPOs can. So instead of voting twice, you know, on a transaction here,
you can just compile one transaction and and vote on vote in one transaction,
so you don't have to drag out your cold keys. Let's say twice. Yeah, and we we actually. You know,
voted for resubmitting the updated committee governance action if it's not passed because it's very,
very important. There are so many things you know hanging on to this that we already for you know,
like we have milestone delivery. Dykstra gets delayed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It's kind of a big freaking deal. Speaking of big freaking deal, what's up, Blackjack? Oh,
don't even go there. What's don't don't? Oh no, yeah, I don't even know. Definitely not me.
A big deal, that's for sure. Big deal in my mind, you know. But nothing. I just wanted to come in
and check out and and see what everybody was doing and hear all my friends talking about
all the things that we love here in Cardano and where we're going next. Need to go up. Yeah,
I did see Ada's actually in. It's well, it's going in the right direction, so that's helpful.
I do remember Epoch giving us the state of Cardano report, the weather report, I believe,
is what it was, and I haven't seen one of those a minute. When it comes to,
it feels like you know this is all positive news, right? Epoch could be giving that report again
in order to kind of let us know what the weather's like outside, so we can actually wonder
whether or not we need an umbrella, galoshes, you know, whatever, right? Epoch. Yeah,
would be helpful, but something tells me he's a slacker. And we can just keep ripping on him,
and he's not even going to know. I know, right now, totally. Well, I do see
that Ada is up one point six two percent. It's following Bitcoin. Yeah,
it's at twenty one currently. It's following Bitcoin in the right direction,
which is up currently two point six percent. And what is our speculation?
What is prompting Ada to go up? Why is everybody now agreeing with what we already knew? Well,
we all know that ADA follows directly with Bitcoin. Typically, we tend to tend to not break.
You can look at the chart and see where we've had one moment, and I believe it was a year
and a half ago at the beginning of the year, where we actually separated our ourselves
and we started to track higher, much higher, actually than Bitcoin was traveling at the time,
to tune of about I think a two X in overall increase percentage increase. So, which was really nice.
We haven't seen that lately. So, hopefully, we can re achieve that. I'm okay with it
just tracking with Bitcoin, to be quite honest. So yeah, as long as we're close or near that number
and percentage increase on a regular basis, let's let Bitcoin retrace back to 128.
That's what about a 40% move somewhere in the neighborhood. So we could see a 40% move in ADA,
which could give us—it's not a lot, but it'd be better than 21. Yes, still, yeah,
still better than you know what we're currently seeing. You know, you know what?
We didn't need Epoch summary. You did a great job. I try. I do try. I do have some really cool news
myself. And Marco are going to go on with Brian and Eric with a live event next Wednesday.
So this just recently confirmed, just confirmed with Nick today and TG.
They haven't announced anything yet, so I'll let them get out of it. As I'm kind of announcing
the announcement, the announcement of the announcement. Can you believe it? You just did it.
I know we've got a confirmation today, so I'm really kind of excited actually to be hanging out
with Brian and Eric. I know that my ability to be able to recall facts at a ninety nine percent.
Verifiable rate like Charles does is not even remotely close. So, yeah, I swear to God, he is AI.
Sometimes, what listening to him and they're like, "Oh, that can't be true,
" and it turns out it's true. You know, and he's like almost dead on. You know,
with the guy's recall, he his recall is crazy. He really is, and so I don't even recording.
He's processing. He's you know querying against. I don't know how he does it.
I don't know how he does it. I'm with you. Me neither. I stopped writing things down so much
because I can transcribe everything so well. Then I just look at that,
or I ask an LLM to help me find whatever I forgot. Right, and it helps me
also kind of like rephrase what I'm trying to say, which is the other thing. Typically, I'm, I'm,
I tend to do run-on sentences, and yeah. The LLM actually helps me grammatically deliver a message
that I'm trying to deliver without it looking like just one long drawn out sentence, you know. So,
which is important. I have to when you want to keep people's attention.
I have to do these videos occasionally, and the app that I use to like edit things does have
a button where it will remove your ums, your as. Oh. Yeah, I'm proud to say
I haven't had to use that. I'm pretty good about it. I will intentionally throw some ums in there
to be a little more casual, but I think that's a pretty cool feature. Yeah, no question.
I've actually gotten better with it. My wife listens to me every now and again when I'm talking,
even though she's not in the room here with me. Yeah, and she gives me a little review every now
and again. Seriously, let her sit down with a notebook and just do a tick for every time you do.
And and having your wife come at you and be like, "Thirteen times, honey, you're gonna stop quick.
" Yeah, yeah. I used to speak. In there, I go. There you did it. You did it. I was going to say.
Well, I was trying to trying to figure out how I would deliver this, you know,
because I'm trying to not actually talk about anonymous programs anymore. Yeah. Typically,
in anonymous programs, you speak. You know, and you learn how to speak.
And I would go out to do speaking engagements, and I did one. I was really nervous,
and when I'm nervous, I use um and ah a lot. And my buddy counted it one time for me. Yeah.
And he gave me the report after at the end of it, and I was like, Oh my gosh,
I can't believe I said it that many times. He goes, Yeah, we had a running bet
over the over over under. Oh boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after that, I became a lot more.
Aware of that, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, with that said, you know, just don't need to actually use
those words and continue on with you know the sentence without using it,
which is exceedingly helpful. You just did it again, though. I know. I know. I did Toastmasters.
I've told you about that. Oh wow! Yeah, that was pretty hardcore because at the end
of every you know Toastmasters meeting, there was this game they would play,
and everybody had a role, and if you didn't have a role, you had a role.
So a person thought of all the topics, and basically what would happen is somebody would call
your call your name and just give you a random topic from the list that that person created,
and you had to think about what you were going to say, and had to talk about it for two minutes.
The only amount of time you had to really process what you were going to say was the time
it took you to get up from your table to the front of everybody at that podium.
And that's like kind of intense. And the worst part is, is when they give you a topic that
you don't know any fricking thing about, like basketball. I don't, dude. They
and they talk about like the basketball game from last night, the Saints versus whoever,
and I was like, I am so effed. But what I learned was I didn't actually have to talk about that.
I could use that into like segue into something sort of relevant but completely off topic. So right,
right. It teaches you to think differently. However, one component of it was somebody's assignment
was to sit there and do as I said, tick every time you said that. And so as you're walking back,
they'll let you know how many times you said it. I like the segue thing, especially
because if you don't know the topic, like basketball, for example, because there is
no actual Saints basketball team. Okay, good. I have no idea. Right. So instead,
you use that as an analogy for something else, and you roll into that. Yeah, yeah.
Especially into a wheelhouse where it is that you actually live and you have a good grasp of,
you know, the underlying concept of it. Right. I think the way I did it was I rolled that I was.
At a restaurant that had the local whatever Saints game going, and I knew nothing about it.
And the guy that was sitting next to me asked him to change the channel,
and then we ended up watching this news report. And then I can talk about something I actually knew.
That was how I did it, because I learned the rules were a little looser than you realize.
You just had to really talk for two minutes, really. Right. Yeah. The main thing is, is
and and come up with something that works. Everybody would be listening to.
You can provide information. Yes. Yes. So, so that was super helpful. The other one is
when somebody teaches you to do a ninety second elevator pitch. That takes a lot of trial and error.
No question. And be concise. Yeah, because you got ninety. I can run off on tangents. Oh.
Can I run off on tangents? So, all right, we're gonna let Eric speak. What's up, Kenny? Ken Eric,
what's up, pal? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just wondering, have we had the conversation in Cardano
about co-fing in regards to Cardano Lightning System? What? Similar to Bitcoin Lightning?
Have you heard of it? No. Well, I've heard of it. Finally, I can bring something cool news here.
Bring it. Nice. Ah, yeah. Put it up in the top here, and there's a nice video on YouTube
if you want to like dig into every. Piece and corner of it, and the architecture and stuff.
And this might be, let's say, in regards to you know, Bitcoin DeFi on Cardano.
Possibilities here for so-called atomic swaps as well. There's a smart contract here.
I haven't dived into the Gita, but it's it's cool. But we have Lightning. What do you think?
All right, I just saw your post from six minutes ago, and that's what I shared. Can Eric?
Does this have anything? Is it related to the River Ark at all? No, so I haven't met this guy,
Ilya Bitchok, who is behind this, and it's like Pauli. Ah, what's the name again? Pauli. Ah,
Pauli something. Pauli Crypt. There we go. I haven't heard of the team. I just saw the news now,
and okay. Yeah, so then there's a couple people going after this particular tech utility,
which allows for ADA to be utilized, which is also something that we talked about with USDM as well,
where we'd like to be able to provide new utility for USDM. So anybody that holds it,
why would I hold it? What is it used for? Is it just a rock and sits there?
Does it generate a yield? How can it generate a yield? Is there a rewards program that's based in
this particular thing? If I receive it as a deliverable when I do my proposal,
when I receive the the USDM, what can I do with it immediately? Is there costs associated with that?
Can you reduce those costs associated with being able to convert it into, say, USDC, for example,
things like that? Right. So lightning network exceedingly helpful because it allows for
direct payments surrounding that. You see Hydra. Well, and that's the thing. Does is it needed?
Sometimes when I look at Hydra, is it needed? Typically, if let's say we use the Visa network,
for example, the sorry, no, you just said um, the Lightning network is directly connected
to let's say the Visa network, 150 million locations everywhere, and you just need something
in the background doing conversions. The Lightning Network can provide that
and do those particular conversions. If USDM can be placed on, you know, as a usable asset,
you know, something that's on the platform, then USDM can also be converted, you know,
using that particular thing. So I think the Lightning Network would be exceedingly helpful
with that, especially because Bitcoin. Carries such a big stick, you know,
when it comes to people maybe adopting it, for example, so or using it,
which is exceedingly important, right? You can build something, if nobody uses it, who cares,
you know? So you need people to use it, trust it, expect that it to work every time,
and the costs are also very low associated with that, or at least comparable to what
they're currently paying with the costs associated with those things, right? So, yeah,
I'm really want to see this succeed for sure. Yeah, this is a cool feature,
and they're also looking into cross-chain payments without using bridges, you know,
because Bitcoin they absolutely do not accept anything else than trustless. You know,
they don't have any intermediaries, third party, whatever. So with this. Cardano Lightning,
it makes it possible for cross-chain payments without bridges, and you know,
it's like a protocol where, you know, for example, a merchant can receive
native Bitcoin over the Lightning net network without wrapped tokens or intermediary bridges
or any just all the risks. So that's that's a cool cool feature. I think it's like a This is
a good step in the right direction for attracting. What do you call it, Blackrock?
The big stick through Kadam. Use the big stick to get users in. If you have a trusted network
and trusted group, then it makes it a lot easier for people to try it.
Which is one of the harder things to get people to do is like why would I try it?
Why would I trust it? The bridge, of course, that's a bad word these days.
That's like a four-letter word in crypto. So we want to try and avoid the bridge word at all costs.
And if you can effectively avoid that technically, that's even better, you know. So,
but at the same time, not having that centralized thing, right? That usually is there. You know,
is this Lightning Network, our payment channels. Are they? There more than likely there's
some centralized component to it because if you work off the heartbeat of you know Bitcoin,
there's no way someone's going to stand there for what is it? How long? Fifteen minutes, Canarek,
in order to be able to get confirmations enough in order for a payment to go through.
If you were to just use Bitcoin, say for example, I think it's even longer.
So no one's going to sit at Dick's Sporting Goods in line there waiting to get their hockey stick.
Right for that payment to go through, so you know it takes a long time.
It would it would take a while. So there is some central centralized you know aspect to this
in order to be able to facilitate these. Where there's some private vaults
and floats that are managed in order to be be able to do these conversions. It can be automated,
right? But still, there's going to be some sort of thing in the background that's managing
this particular part of it. So, but yeah, love that we're seeing this though. I just learned
that conduit. Maybe that's a correct pronunciation. It's a word that's probably going to be around
for a while now, and everybody's going to learn it. Nice. Even an app as well. Conduit.
C o n d u i t. It's a k o n d u i t. Okay. Okay. Spelled a little differently.
Kind of like we had to use the Z over and over again. We couldn't use freeloaders with an S.
We had to use Z drip drops. Couldn't use drip drops with an S. It had to be a Z.
So we've always got to have it slightly different. Someone's already taken the the original name
for it, what have you. So makes perfect sense. But yeah, this this will be very cool. Love it.
All right. So I wasn't sure, but I do remember seeing that. I saw it through a post from Frederick
from CF that he bought stickers using ADA through Comduit at a bit Bitcoin Lightning point of sale.
That was a lot to say. Well, it got done though. So, and there are companies out there
that'll do multi-hop, but what you really want is the least amount of friction possible,
so that it because typically multi-hop, if you're doing conversions and you're moving it from one
to another and using pools, let's say on Binance or whatever, typically the fees go up
associated with that, so it becomes too costly and you can't compete in a market where they're using
other things in order to do it. And people are like, "Why would I do that?
I'll just do it over here, and it costs me, you know, blah blah blah." You know, no big deal.
Versus that, where it cost me more. So, yeah, creates problem there. Yeah. So, anyway, I like that,
and yeah, good news. So, I'm bummed that I missed Robertino today. I love Robertino.
Bummed that I missed him today. I have to listen back to the recording. A lot of fun. Yeah,
stuck in meetings all day as usual. It's all my life. It's my life. Thursday is not my meeting day.
It is my day to have fun. That's why I'm here for a couple hours. Beautiful. Yeah,
I know it's a great day. The three days before are really difficult. I'm sure. No question.
But well, I mean, hey, have you talked about the the token twenty forty token twenty forty nine
at all? Uh, let's let's hear it. I don't know which part you want. Well, it's having to do with the.
So submissions have been made. Cardano Foundation is sponsoring twenty separate proposers.
They'll be presenting at the booth. They've got a total of sixty submissions.
They are currently now in deliberation. Right. It just closed the twenty fifth. It closed, right?
And so they are now being. It's being reviewed now. Just so everybody knows,
CF is not doing this in a silo by themselves. They have also employed or incorporated the growth
and marketing committee. And a working group in order to be able to review all the submissions
in order to ensure that there isn't more that there's more than one reviewing all the submissions
to make sure that it's as fair as it possibly can be. CF is I don't know if anybody's noticed CF
has been exceedingly good at making sure that everybody knows that they are trying to make sure
that all the community is involved or engaged at every opportunity potentially possible.
Very difficult to do, a lot of work. But they're doing it, and so just want to make sure
everybody knows that. So everybody, good luck to all the the submissions. USDM has been one of them.
We Manetta submitted right on the deadline on the twenty fifth. But we have submitted as well,
as along with a variety of others. There's Strike. Shan with Strike is there. These are ones I know.
They're going Raoul with Fluid. They've submitted. MBX is submitted. There's a variety
of submissions that are there. But total of sixty submissions. The one thing I'll put out,
just point out at the end, is that anybody is welcome if you're at Token 2049,
and you can fund your own way there outside of the submission process because this actually funds
both the hotel and the airfare. Sadly, not first class. Or even business class, but that's fine.
But anyway, because that's a long trip for me, 15 hours. But anyway, yeah, yeah, I digress. I know,
I know. I'm gonna sit in a chair. I don't care. If I get picked, who cares? It's free.
But if you show up there, you're more than welcome to show up to the booth.
I know I'm not speaking out of turn. Lara and Laura Matucci, Elise, Umar,
everybody's going to be there, and we, you will more than be be welcomed in. With sitting there
and talking about your project in the booth. Oh yeah, absolutely. So yeah, yeah,
which would be really cool. So very accommodating there, surrounded us.
So good luck to all the participants, and for anybody else, I hope that if I get picked,
I can't wait to see everybody in Singapore. First time ever being in Singapore, so that'll be fun.
I think the one thing that'll be challenging is it's one person per project, right? Yep,
one person per project. So if you want to bring an extra, you know, you're gonna have to be footing
the bill for that. I really didn't want to go by myself. I really was hoping that I could bring Ed,
yeah, with us. So we'll see. But you know, that's gonna be the tough part.
We're all used to having our our group with us, right? Yes. You know. No question. Especially
when you're like at a booth trying to talk to people, and my understanding with the booths is
the booth presence, while supposed to be pretty decent, isn't large enough to let all the projects
display at once. So my understanding is it was going to be like a rotation
through the little smaller booths within, and the stage. There's a stage where like each project
will be expected to come up and like demonstrate or talk. So especially with those things in mind,
we're used to having somebody with us to kind of banter. It'll be right more community.
You're going to be leaning on people from other projects. Yeah, exactly.
And what the beauty of it is with USDM, I mean, there's a plenty of projects that are using USDM
and are also going to be presenting. So, and I'm half the time, majority of time,
we'll be talking about some other project, not really what Monet or USDM is doing specifically,
for the most part, which is really cool. There is one other side event that's being included in that
for everybody that's also being included there is that you can also go to Draper Dragon is having
a side event and that Orion Fund. Will be there, and you'll be able to present there as well,
or pitch there as well. So it's also included in this whole thing, which is nice. Nice. Yep. So even
though we're not doing a summit, we still got CF coming in, funding twenty. That's a lot of money.
I don't know if anybody realizes how much money it's going to cost to get people there. No,
it's definitely a bit. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, kind of cool to do, and having a booth.
I don't even know how much that booth costs. I don't even want to know. Be honest. Well, I mean,
this is from Amurgo's things. It is part of. I don't remember. I well, remember it is. I think,
and then they've kind of just taken it over. Yeah, that sounds. Because Amurgo is not really.
They're really focused on the second fight thing. Yeah, I mean, understandably, right? Yeah,
it just sucks. Oh yeah, but I don't know. Yeah, we need some good news, right? New things coming.
I just gave you one. I know you did. We need more, Caner. We need twenty of you. Hey, have you,
Danny? Again, another good news is the people are twisting my arms here and there and pushing me,
and even Tolkien Twenty Four sent me this email this morning that I can get a discount
on their ticket. I I can buy one and bring one for free. So if you have very big tits,
I'm just kidding. Wow! Wow! I can't. I can't believe you said that. I love you even more.
That was awesome. Anyway, yeah. Well, so anyway, I'm considering. I wish you the best. Thank you.
Thank you. There's gonna be a review process. That apparently Caner is doing. I had no idea
that this. I mean, I'm not sure what the review process will be like. Maybe just submit
your pictures. Sorry, I mean your your submissions to Caner directly. Yeah. Oh my gosh,
that was hilarious, bro! Way to blow me up. I love it. We're gonna end this on a high note.
Even more good humor and a good ending of Cuttle. Absolutely, appreciate you, bro. So,
in conclusion of this show, if anybody wants to go to Token and you're a woman who's got
Some big melons you're carrying around with you everywhere. Can Eric really like to talk with you?
Slide into a DM. He is willing to hook you up.
All right, I love you guys. Later. Bye. Okay, take care, everyone.
