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Epochs End 572
Recorded: July 28, 2025 Duration: 2:32:16Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello and welcome. Welcome everyone to Epochs N Five Seventy Two. We are gathered here today to talk
all things Cardano. Everyone is welcome to speak, and there is plenty to talk about. First off,
if you are listening to the recording of this space, then I just want to say I'm so sorry
you could not join us live to participate in this wonderful conversation that you are
about to bear witness to. But we do it every five days. The next epoch's end will be on Saturday,
this upcoming Saturday. But yeah, without further ado, happy Monday, everybody!
I see some friendly faces in the in the space already. Yeah, what what's going on, guys?
I'll give a hundred Ada to the first person to join a speaker. I promise.
So so much going on in the world of Cardano. So many diverse, unique perspectives on the challenges
and the opportunities that we face. And I am most inspired by the wisdom of the crowd of Cardano.
And I really genuinely would just like to hear what everybody is thinking
and feeling about this network that we're all a part of right now. Where are we at?
Do a little temp temperature check here in the space. Tutor, thank you for joining us as a speaker.
Happy epoch's end. Welcome. Happy epoch's end. I'm definitely not coming here for the 100 ADA.
Please redirect that.
But do you? I'm not sure what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. Do you still do those NFTs?
What's going on, though, Tutor? How are you feeling? How was your epoch five seven two? Well,
it's been a lot for me. Every epoch is quite a lot, but the further we go, the number,
further the the number goes up. Five seven one, five seven two, and so on. It becomes more and more,
I don't know, impactful and more full of learning. And yeah, happy to save you from the lone host,
lone host driving the space. How how is it on your end? Oh, I'm I'm a passenger here in this space.
You you are the driver, sir. We've never been been too good at this. Feels like. Sorry,
sorry to cut you off, Bunny. No, no, go on. Sorry. Well, if you insist, you know this.
This space is brought to you by Weed Stakepool. That's ticker W E E D. And you know,
I I don't want to get emotional here. Well, I am already. So there's a creature that roams
the wilderness. Of this ecosystem, it's a mangy, shit-stained canine called Hosky,
and there's a lot of crossover with the Hosky community and the Starch community as well, right?
So there's a lot of Starch miners who are also Hosky enthusiasts, but specifically, you know,
this creature saw fit to make Weed Stick Pool a Hosky rug pool, and. You know,
this epoch for some reason it really clicked. I think partly because it just didn't even feel real.
I just got a message from Hosky saying, "Hey, we have a stake pull leaving.
You guys were the runners up in the last, you know, vote, so it's it's your spot if you guys
are ready." We're like, "Okay." The whole thing is just crazy, man. And you know,
five days at a time is a good pace to break things down, or at least try.
But then I catch myself on certain epochs, just kind of finally coming to grips with things
that happened thirty epochs ago. You know, so it's just. These arbitrary amounts of time are
so valuable as checkpoints, but we we can never force understanding to happen, right? Even
if we want to or try to, it's it just sometimes it really does take time to appreciate things.
And sorry, that was a roundabout, meandering way of saying that Weedstik Pool has been producing
consistent blocks without any fear or uncertainty or doubt for the last few months, and that's
because of Hosky. And I got to put it in a tweet, just but it felt like almost too soon to really.
Well, I don't want to belay his husky too hard, but anyways, that's how my epoch has been. Really,
just a lot of reflection, and but anyways, that's enough about me. How are you guys doing?
Everybody's welcome to speak. I know some of you probably had relaxing, laid-back epochs,
and others maybe had kind of intense, stressful epochs. But everyone is welcome.
Every everything in between. No pressure either. Let me share one thing related to Cardano that is,
is probably my my my biggest achievement in this epoch. I had a meeting with the board of directors
of the largest local Moldovan winery related to to the winery operations management tool
that is doing supply chain tracking on Cardano. And the meeting went really well.
They loved the the the web app that we are creating. It's an ERP, and we will be signing an MOU
with them. We'll continue to develop it further to include some of their particular business flows.
And this is a big win after a year and a half developing on Cardano related to Wine Tech.
I said it.
Sorry, this was too serious. I know, but I don't know how to change it. I was muted.
I had I had a question. Moldovan, that's that's a that's a European country, right? Moldova. Yeah,
yeah, Moldova. And and what kind of grapes are they growing there? Just out of curiosity,
what what's what's like the top lineage happening? I think the top international ones are
Cabernet Merlot and Glara, and then. There's the local ones, which I will say in translation,
Lady Black and Lady White, and then there's the Royal Black and Royal Royal White.
And what what what kind of information, if you can share with us, what like specifically,
what are the things that got them excited about putting on chain? Yeah,
so traceability is all over Europe now. Like everything has to be traced in order to check
where it's coming from, and the suppliers and everything has to become one centralized system.
And by the European regulations that are coming out by the day now,
all of them include traceability, supply chain tracking. And they're always using
DLT distributed ledger systems, and they're not saying use this kind or this one or this one.
They're just asking for DLTs, and Cardano is my DLT. So what the winery, which is Kricova.
Is is excited about is is actually something not only related to blockchain because they have a lot
of operations starting from the vineyards and with grapes harvesting, primary,
secondary vinification, bottling and storage and all that. They they need an ERP system
that would help them put all of this together. So whenever you need to start an action,
you start it in one place. You don't have to make three phone calls to start that action.
But you would start it in in the app, and also when an action gets done and has a data output,
it goes into this app. And at the end of the year of or at the end of the decade,
you have all the statistics and like what's the price you paid for
these ten thousand ten thousand bottles of wine or this million bottles of of wine.
It's very easy to calculate that through through this program. Yeah. So,
but and Europe is a very very large. Thing, I can't explain it all, but I hope I kind of scratched
the surface with with this. And at the base level, it's it's it's a priority to them, partly
because it helps them be compliant with regulations and stuff, right? But also,
there's an underlying value, and they realize this to being able to verify steps in this process
in terms of eventually being able to charge more for certain wines because they can say, "Hey, look,
we got this whole thing from seed to bottle." Verified on chain, with a bunch of benchmarks
and you know verifications, like that. That does make a product very. It increases its value,
you know. And shitty wineries will have no incentive if they're scammy, shitty wines.
They have no incentive to try to, you know, conform to certain standards and do these things. Right?
It's it's for craftsmen of all type. Yeah, yeah, pretty pretty much so.
So I get them interested with the extra value this program gives for managing their operations,
and then blockchain comes at the end to anchor their supply chain tracking information
on the blockchain, like by the latest top notch ways of doing it on on a blockchain,
especially on a public blockchain that Cardano is. Usually, you might know they use
their own blockchains that are changeable if they're like infirm. And well,
now pretty much in Moldova, we're doing so much with communicating with government and companies
and businesses that it seems we're we're reaching a moment where this might not be fair,
but blockchain equals Cardano. So those who with whom we have spoken, we've shown like
how we do this, how we put these transactions with information on chain,
and like they see the the system that we are showing them, and some some of them are starting to
to learn what it is. And we're doing some master classes. We did one with Cardano Foundation
here with five government agencies. That was 12 of June, not too long ago,
like physical in person master class, four hours with like 30 people. And like,
Cardano is is becoming something really cool in in Moldova now. Wow, incredible!
Thank you for sharing that with us, sir. I the the wine thing is such a perfect jumping off point
for so many different kind of anything agricultural where you're where you're harvesting things
from the ground, right? A lot of these systems for wine they won't translate one to one, obviously.
Like each each crop has its own nuances. But you know, you are going to have
such an incredible template for other industries as well. You know, I don't know if that's something
you think about right now. You are probably just doing one thing at a time, but very exciting.
Oh no, we're not doing one thing at the same time. Oh my goodness, only doing only one.
So you are working on canvas too. You are crazy. I'd love to. We need a few more years for that.
Yeah, I am kidding. But yeah, there's another kind of. I don't know if you've heard of ESPr,
Echo Design for for sustainable products regulation. It's a thing in Europe right now. It started
a couple of years ago from ESPr and so on. So they want everyone, like all producers, to have
digital product passports for each product with specific regulations to to show what are
the materials, who are the suppliers. How do you recycle that? What's the end of life?
How do you repair that? And a few more things there. And it's it's just starting now.
Like the first concrete regulation is coming in January, and it will be like mandatory for textiles
and tires and lubricants and batteries. It will be mandatory to to already work by
mid twenty twenty seven. And Moldova is trying to join EU because we are geographically Europe,
but not part of the European Union. And our government is trying by all means to
and implement them here in Moldova. And we are the the only initiative that is working on
prototyping these things. For well, for for the Moldovan side, but it will not be like limited to
to Moldova. Anybody from Europe or whoever is exporting to Europe will be able to use this
to create these digital product passports for for their multiple products. What like the funny part?
Kind of my funny part at the moment is that I spoke with the ministry in charge
and a couple of agencies like the textiles agency. And fashion agency. Now again,
we signed MOUs with everybody, and we are in the process of making this first prototype.
Maybe will be finished by end of this week or beginning of next week. And that ministry
is already using this as a like using that somebody is prototyping it.
They're using this as a a negotiation point to release the next amount of funds
that is going towards digitalization and and infrastructure. Kind of makes me feel important now,
and I don't know. Yeah, and we are a catalyst baby, like you. You sound like someone
who's just bursting with the excitement and optimism of boundless anticipation for the future. Yeah,
it's kind of this. This is what brought me back home, and it's working out very well. Well,
that's the beauty of it. If if if what we're working on is actually legit, it works for everybody,
everywhere. You know, it's not something. It works for people in California.
It works for people in Moldova. Works for people in parts of Southeast Asia and wherever else.
You know, it's beautiful. But that's that's kind of how it has to be. You know,
it has to work for everybody, everywhere, or else. It it it just can't. It has a ceiling on it.
You know. Exciting times. Exciting times of optimism. Good cheer, positivity, and love. Truly,
our actions are guided by a spirit of love for one another, for ourselves,
for the places where we live, for our neighbors. Love. It's like Wonder Woman
said in the recent film adaptation: "Life isn't about what we deserve;
it's about what we believe in." And I believe in love. Powerful words. But yeah,
every everybody's welcome to speak, guys. We're just Hanging out here talking all things Cardano.
We all have our own unique perspectives, and that's beautiful. It's what makes us strong.
It's what makes us dynamic. And when things get stagnant, they get brittle and they snap. Right.
Got to have some juices flowing. If the juices stop flowing, things break apart.
But as long as there's some juices flowing, and by juices I mean ideas and conversations,
sometimes funny and relaxed, other times. Somewhat combative and, you know, spirited.
They're all part of the flowing juices of life that keep us stable and sturdy.
What am I talking about? You ask yourself. I ask myself the same thing. But yeah, happy epoch end,
everybody. Just Tudor and I hanging out here, talking about Cardano and life, the universe.
There's almost too many stories to even. Where where do you begin? Where does one begin in
the last five days of Cardano? And just swimming in this sea of excitement and new developments.
As if on cue, look who has requested to speak. The one, the only, Johnny Kelly. Hello, sir.
Happy Epoch end. Hello. You dying up here? Yeah. I just. It's it's been a long day, buddy. It's been
a long day, long epoch, but we're here. We're surviving. You've been you've been kumbaya on it for
the last couple of minutes. There, like love, love. Without the juices, we'll be brittle. Speaking,
speaking of brittleness, I put a little link in the in the comments under the space
to most recent LGR video, which is like Lazy Game Reviews Retro Channel, and he got sent.
Like a portable computer from back in like the eighties, and it got massively broken, ah,
in transit, and it's very brittle. It snaps apart like a Dorito crisp, as he or chips, sorry, as ah,
he shows in the video. So that's something to watch. After this, of course,
because you're listening to Epoch Sand. That's Epoch Sand. Remember, everybody. Yeah, it's
Epoch Sand. It's okay, Donny. How was your Epoch, sir? How are you doing? Oh, like oh,
everything keeps happening, right? Everything just continues, and you can't do anything
about it other than continue with with it. So, like you know, love it keeps everything flowing.
Juices. Did you like what I said earlier about the juices of love? Yeah, I'm glad you. Clearly,
I did. Well, what you know, Cardano-related things, right? We're here to talk about
this beautiful blockchain that we all. All right, give me some topics. Have you got an NFT?
What's Nudes been doing? Is he still making things? What's What's the history of of Epoch's end?
As As things broken apart, that we not have reporting reportage anymore. What's going on?
That was my question for you, as someone who hasn't necessarily been engaging on.
I haven't been letting the juices flow, and I've been making things very brittle.
I took your subtext, man. No, I was just curious. In In the last five days, for you, Johnny,
what What's at front of mind as a Bundling mine right now today. One of my clients,
Zambia Stake Pool, signed up for a trial of the NewNet SPO distributed compute.
So they want to try out a relay. They get a one month free trial apparently,
and see if they can run a relay on their infrastructure through NewNet.
So that's pretty interesting. I've been watching a demo of their DMS, their management system,
and how to set up a user and different private public key pairs and things like that.
So I'm just gonna follow their guides and see where we go. You love to hear it.
You love to hear it in Zambia. Stakepole is a relatively more recent endeavor, right? Or is it?
Or am I? Am I an asshole? Oh dear! Oh dear! They they they're more relatively more recent in terms
of getting their delegation, but not in terms of existing. And I had so many heart to hearts
with the man in Zambia, Ian Lazar, the doctor, about how you haven't had any delegation yet.
And then Dave in the ecosystem came in and and highlighted a sort did a sort of profile for Zambia.
And then suddenly they got a A big whale delegation, and that's that's propagated some more
since then. So that's been very nice journey. Although he is worried about the fact that he's
kind of reliant on that whale, as you've experienced in your life. Oh yes, of course.
With weed stegbol, that's W E E D stegbol, where you can steg smoke her. Weed again.
There's nothing like the tender, merciful love of a whale. There's nothing more brutal
than they keep the juices flowing, man. They stop. Yeah, exactly. It became brittle the second
they left. Right. So we just got to keep the juices flowing for zombie. I'm for weed. No,
you're right, and we've had a an injection of. Pure raw energy from that shit-stained
mangy canine animal that trots around this this ecosystem, known as Husky.
So I just got to give credit. Yes, I heard. I heard your emotional realization many epochs
after the fact that you were saved, essentially by the Husky Rubble movement.
It certainly feels that way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like they they they brought back the juice.
The raw numbers are about, and this is ironic, but this actually is. If you round it up,
it was four hundred and twenty thousand ADA total delegation to almost three million in the space
of you know less than two months or roughly two months. I mean, incredible. Just raw. Just, just.
I mean, yeah, no words except that Hosky community is just built different. But you know, again,
enough enough about me. Enough about Weed Stake Pool. We're here to talk. To the Cardinal community,
interface, have conversations, and keep the juices flowing. So, if anybody has potential,
we read from a newsworthy NFT, or is that not a thing anymore? Is there a falling out that I'm not
aware of? Of am I stepping right in it right now? No, I mean you're you're just asking questions
and um and then making kind of follow up assumptions after your questions. That's sort of
how the ecosystem works, though, right? Oh man! Are you kidding me? I'm inferring from
your silences. Infer from the pure, raw love in my voice right now. If you can't hear the the sweet,
thick, delicious love in my voice as I speak, then I I don't know what I can say.
Your voice is certainly thick with something. There is definitely something thick in your voice
right now. It's thick. I agree. You you'll get no argument from me there.
So what has been happening? Like I've missed many epochs of Epochs End, right?
And Epochs End for a while wasn't even on Epochs End; it was like a day
or two after for for a little bit. So that sort of unsettled me. Like,
is the whole is the whole ecosystem falling apart? Are we are we are we shifting in time?
Do we have to be worried? No, no, of course not, Johnny. Of course not.
You have nothing to worry about. Oh God! Well, I wish that were true. Everything you want
and need will just it'll just manifest at your demand, at your wishes, whenever you choose it.
I I don't think that's true. Hey, Andre Kivarg, welcome. What's up, Johnny? What I do, Van?
It's been a minute. I ain't gonna lie, it's been hella boring this space.
So I figured I would come up here and brag on somebody who doesn't get enough get enough get
enough spotlight. If that's all right, Van. Can I brag on somebody real quick?
It's it's okay with me. Yeah. All right, cool. So. Quick backstory: About three years ago,
I stumbled into Cardano via the music community I had here. Was a buddy of mine that heard
a Six City, and he hooked me up with them because I was already running a label, right?
We came here, we minted tokens through like the Six City record store,
and then you know we've worked with you know Soundrig and Demu and Noom and all these other groups.
And honestly, from a publication standpoint, we didn't really have the tech stack required to do
what a lot of projects, even today, are promising. Now, first thing we did was get behind
pseudoscientists over there at ARP Radio and push that SIP60v3 SIP revision last summer.
We got that approved and submitted through the CS GitHub, and that included all
like the relevant publishing and royalty information and the metadata stack required to do
cooler things with music in the future on chain. Now. Something else we lacked for a long time,
and we complained about this endlessly. It was literally three years of listening room spaces
we would complain about. There's no music NFT player. I don't know if any of you guys remember that,
but man, we bitched and moaned about that forever. Uh, there was various iterations of them done by
guys like Soundrig and the Noom team, but they only work for their individual works
or works done through their platform. We didn't like this, and pseudo scientist over there
at ARP Radio has. Done something that literally resolved all of our original complaints
in the Cardano music ecosystem. So I want to really like take a second to brag on him.
I dropped a comment down below. I didn't want to pin anything to the top because I didn't know
if we were allowed to. But Van, feel free to pin that up. That is the ARP Radio media link.
So you could go check out the ARP Radio platform. On there, you can literally explore every music
token ever launched on Cardano. That's like more than fifteen thousand policies.
So you can explore them. You can play them. You can create playlists, like all that other fun shit.
He did it with no funding. We were denied by the CF thirteen boogaloo.
They had never even read our proposal when they voted. So unfortunate,
but I think that they would have liked this and how far we've come for it.
There's like two things he still wants to do. With this, oh by the way, there's a minting tool too,
so you can mint your tokens as an artist or creator by yourself in Sip60v3 metadata format JSON
and everything, and it can either feed you the JSON for you to take elsewhere and mint yourself,
or you can mint it directly through the game. I think it's G uh Game Changer script supported. Um,
yeah, so that's that's dope. But like the last little layers, Pseudo has to work on is getting
this integrated with existing web two music libraries. That's a huge challenge
and something I don't think any other project on Cardano has the capabilities
or the Industry knowledge to do now. Pseudo's a lifelong publisher. He does this shit by trade.
He's our music publisher at Solidity Records, so he knows his shit. He knows the APIs
and all the necessary requirements to get this pushed across the line, so that eventually,
SIP60 verified tokens will be able to be fingerprinted and approved, and then later playable
on things like Sound. You know, Spotify and like Sound Credit and all this other shit. So like,
there's steps to it, but the he's pretty much like at the last step. So I would encourage everybody
to like go check out the platform and please test it out, use it, give him some feedback,
and then you know kind of keep an eye on him for future developments because the next step
is getting this fingerprinting in place so that people's IP is protected.
We're abiding by current copyright law, and we'll be able to in the future integrate directly
into things like MusicBrainz API, where Apple Music and Spotify pull their music libraries from.
Yeah. So, wow, incredible! But what an incredible concise shill that was.
That was that was actually textbook for what I would ask anyone who wants to shill a project here
in the space. Yeah, I'm really bragging on sudo right now because he's a beast
and he did it pretty much himself. So a lot of credit goes to him, and I just think more people
need to lay their eyes on it. He has resolved the problems we faced early on in the music ecosystem,
in my opinion. Beautiful. We we do have Phil joining us as a new speaker. Real quick though,
we we had Johnny. I saw your hand go up. I don't know if you you still had something for us, John.
Well, I wanted to hear Phil's response since he came up. Unless he's doing a different topic. No,
no, you go ahead. Oh no, sounds like Phil might be. We're doing we're doing the thing.
We're doing the thing. You go first. No, you go first. No man, actually leveraging the standard
is quality. Um, nice to see. I'm going to check this out. Play around with it.
I am very very happy about this myself because at one time I made a project that never went anywhere
because COVID and because lazy bastard. But my music music website for the local music community
at us and I that was the thing, and I wanted to. I got into Cardano because I was interested
in the music thing and you. As a part, and I was like, "Oh, this is cool—a standard
for decentralized publishing of, you know, artists' work." And then it sort of stagnated,
or maybe it didn't—I don't know. Maybe I stagnated, but this is cool to see come back around again.
So I might. Noom just needs pressured into adopting the updated standard,
so that they can actually verify that music is, you know, published and done properly.
And if they're the ones publishing through their Noom Studio, should be something pretty easy
for them. We've provided like countless free workshops every Thursday for this.
And then the other thing is the fact that you can export and take things away to your own thing
is like outstanding good work. Yeah, he open sourced it, so you can check out the GitHub.
I can pin it if necessary. But yeah, I want to hear from Phil. He's been working on some other sips.
Yeah, one very cool. I always thought this like a lot of stuff in crypto is like there's
obvious value to it, and it's not hard technologically to implement. Like you know,
decentralized publication of music and decentralized music royalties, and and all this stuff.
But the execution tends to be very bad. Because, like, to really get people to use this stuff, like,
you need to break into an insanely difficult market. Like, your competitor is Apple Music, right?
Like, everyone's listening to music on their iPhone, and unless you have this, then, you know.
Integration is key, right? And that's the thing about this whole standard approach
and having like the ability to create genres, playlists, tags, standardized metadata.
Like you'll be able to actually index these things. We had an easier time, honestly, Johnny, simply
because the music industry, from a publishing standpoint, already has all of the requirements.
Like there is literally a metadata stack you have to fill to publish music.
So we already had something to go off of that's internationally adopted.
And that's what we built it to accommodate. Andrew, if if I may, you're you're such an articulate,
well-spoken young man. And then I I click on your profile, and it says Andrew Jewberg, cult member.
And I just yeah, it's it's a conflicting thing. It it's no, it's not. It's funny about the branding.
I just I wonder what's going on. Listen, man, just to fight the cult van, I lost.
I've embraced the multi identity. I'm here. I dream about Cardano at night, regardless of
how long I leave. It doesn't matter, so I give up. I'm here. And it's a back reference
to the CK guy, you know. But um, yeah. What was I going to say though before that happened? Oh yeah,
P R S. That's what I was going to talk about. P R S standards, right, for getting your royalties
and that. Yeah, even like ownership, right? It's like that's like the most
like easily understood use cases. Okay, if you buy a song on Apple Music, you don't actually own it.
Like when you used to buy CDs, you can give it to your friend and whatever. Nowadays,
you can't do any of that. And like, oh, blockchain's the fix, but then it's like, okay,
if I buy music or a book on Book.io or whatever, music through Noom, where do you listen to it?
Like you have to go to a website, you have to do all, and it's like, if it's not on your phone,
then it's almost like you don't even really own it, right? At least because that's
how people listen to music. Feels that way, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but to give him credit, Noom
and Stuff.io both have pretty good libraries and mobile apps. I've actually enjoyed using both,
but it's ill compared to, in my opinion, the the art radio approach. So shout out again to sudo.
He could probably come up here and talk a lot more about the more detailed problems. But dude,
one of the things he had us do was write a letter and comment to Congress because they recently had
a PRO inquiry into like the congressional copyright process and how PRO agencies work. So you know,
we put together a comment on that and. I mean, if he did all the writing
and we just pushed it out for signatures, we submitted that. It was one of only like fifty
or a hundred unique comments out of like the two and a half thousand submitted or so. So, yeah,
it's pretty cool, and I think he's taking the proper approach as far as like getting this integrated
and adopted at the, you know, the framework level. Yeah. The next thing is I wanted to shout out
and chill my sip that I pinned to the top. Please, if you're a developer, go read it,
and if you like it, signal support. It is incredibly difficult to get the ledger team
to change anything on Cardano, and the only way they will do it is if there's a massive amount
of developer support and demand for it. And yeah, as someone who's worked in the ecosystem for
many years, worked on just about every project on mainnet on Cardano, this will save
the ecosystem immeasurable amounts of money, make everything immeasurably more secure,
and it's just a an improvement that Cardano desperately needs. And you don't just listen to me,
like Casey. Yeah. Every every every developer who's in day out building
smart contracts on Cardano will tell you this is necessary. This was the standard to prevent people
putting a fly in your ointment on your smart contract, right? Like be able to gate it. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. I mean, right now the problem is smart contracts have to treat every single piece
of information as adversarial by default, meaning you can't trust anything,
and you have to do all these weird workarounds that introduce a massive amount of complexity
to figure out what you can and can't trust. And it is a logistical and security nightmare.
And the more complex your protocol is, the harder this is. And it makes building things that are
really complex, like the top of the line apps on other chains, like the cutting edge of, you know,
decentralized finance or anything, it makes it infeasible. Because you know, yeah, okay,
maybe you can do it with one contract, you can secure everything and and differentiate
unvalidated data. But then you get to ten, and then it's like, okay, well, somewhere in there,
you have no idea, right? There's just too much, too many edge cases you have to cover,
too much you have to deal with. You have to assess everything all the time instead of having like
a requirement. So it would would would a layman's term or a marketing term for this be like
the firewall for your smart contracts? Yeah, I mean, and even to layman terms, like
how I can explain it is right now, right on Cardano, you cannot prevent people
from sending you funds, right? And this SIP will allow you to choose to accept
or decline whenever someone sends you funds, right? You you have to sign the transaction.
And and this even this alone outside of the worlds of smart contracts is incredibly useful
from a business and regulation standpoint. Right now, right if you know someone
who's OFAC sanctioned like a terrorist steals funds and sends it to you,
you are by default OFAC sanctioned, and you have to you know do a million things
and spend tens of thousands of dollars interfacing with OFAC to get yourself removed from
the sanction list. Right. This is not something you want, and this is, for instance,
one of the reasons that Charles has given for the fact that he doesn't have a public wallet,
because you know anyone could just send him one like meme coins that he now has a tax obligation
for, and two, you know, a terrorist could just sanction him and make it so he can't interact with
Coinbase or any you know off ramp, and that can happen to any of us. It can happen to me,
and I have a public wallet, and this is not good, right? You do not want to be in a in an ecosystem
where you cannot do anything about a terrorist sending you funds and putting you on a sanction list.
Hmm. Beautiful. Less controversial than contingent staking because it would be
the individual wallet owner opting into this filter or prevention. Consensual staking. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah, this is a, it's like contingent staking. You can see it as anti-libertarian,
but this is the opposite. I mean, this is libertarian in the sense that, like, as a libertarian,
if you're like I'm a freedom maxie, then you want the freedom to be able to. Yeah,
to say I'm not accepting your funds, right? Right now, you have no choice.
You're you have no personal freedom over whether you receive funds or not, right?
This is just more flexibility. If you don't want to use this feature, you don't have to use it,
and everything's fine. And if you want the ability to, you know, accept funds,
then you can have that and you can use this feature. So just to just to take the other side
for a second, like, what if businesses decide they won't take money from this, that,
the other censorship transactions, you know? Sure, and in fact, they will. But these businesses,
the types of businesses that will do that, won't even use Cardano in the first place if that support
isn't there. Like for instance, if you're a regulated business in the U.S.,
you cannot engage with people from Iran. It just is illegal from a regulatory standpoint.
So you know the SEC will go after you. They're extremely strict with this,
and this is why everything has Iran blocked from basically any interaction with
with these applications. And this is why a ton of applications just don't launch.
And you know it's better to have that business than not have it. And I imagine, you know,
the people that don't care about this stuff, they'll they just won't use it, right?
Like there will be DApps that will say, "Fuck it, I'll let the SEC go after me,
" and they just won't use it, and that'll be fine. That's it. If it's opt-in
and people choose to use it. Then at least there is still the freedom for people who don't want to.
But is it a slippery slope? That's always the question. If you introduce a feature,
does it become a standard and then become default? But yeah, that's to find out in the future.
And in fact, a smart contract can actually already do this, right? Like you could write a DAP
that just says, like, I'm only I'm blacklisting Iranian users. What you can't do is write a DAP
that says I'm not allowing people to try to hack me because you know you can't prevent what
people send to your smart contract. Yeah, yeah, that's that's really what this is for. Yeah. No.
Yes. Back to the actual SIP. Yes, it's for the smart contracts. It's not for individual wallets.
Well, it's for individual smart contract wallets that aren't associated with the keys
and all this stuff. Yeah. It's not even for smart contract wallets. It's just for any smart contract
on Cardano, just in general. Like every DAP, it will cut the amount of code required in half.
Because right now, yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of this. Well, if Johnny is a fan, then I'm a fan too.
Yeah, please go signal support. Write a comment if you have the time, because yeah,
the burden of getting this introduced is incredibly high. A little added context for anybody
who's bewildered by the conversation right now: we're talking about a Cardano Improvement Proposal,
also known as a SIP, which these things are submitted by genius-level intellects like Phil,
who see ways that we can evolve Cardano at a protocol level. And so he has put forward
a new proposal that he's been describing for us. Thank you. Just get everybody caught up here.
You know, Phil is also one of Cardano's largest and most impressive D reps.
I don't mean to put you on a pedestal here, Phil, but how's the last five days of governance been?
What's jumping out at you lately? I have a lot of proposals to go through. Thirty-nine, to be exact.
Yeah. Yeah, lots of homework, huh? There's been some voting happening, some constitutionality,
some unconstitutionality. It's all it's all happening in real time. I'm still trying to make sense
of it all. There's going to be lots to talk about. That first treasury withdrawal sort of test post
sad news about the mismatch. Yeah, you're because we had 39 proposals,
but one was a little the very first one before the proposal. Well, no,
the one that was the the canary in the coal mine, just to check, you know, if everything worked.
And then it didn't in that regard for one one small little bit, and then the rest were
able to benefit from the from the sacrifice of the first. It looks like I don't know if you guys
saw this just a couple hours ago. I saw it on the timeline that Cardinal Foundation
will be abstaining from the constitutionality discussion for these thirty nine proposals. Oh,
for the constitutionality discussion. I thought that's what it was, unless I misread that. Well,
where did you see it? Twitter. Yeah, but what tweet? Can you show me the tweet?
That was a foundation post. Yeah, I'll I'll find it. I thought it was a foundation post saying,
"Hey, we're going to abstain from these." We're we're into your news. Oh, just you know, a rind.
I think it was an Iranian newspaper that I saw was posted. All right,
so like a CIA front then? Cardano Foundation. Let's see what we got here. I'll pin it at the top.
Oh man, I'm embarrassed. I might have been just sharing outright fake news with everyone here,
and if that is the case, I apologize in advance. The thing I did see was Charles bringing up
the fact that the foundation are going to abstain from voting on the IOC proposal, yes or no,
and he was talking about this being the divorce or something like that. Oh man, I'm embarrassed.
I'm sorry, guys. I think I might have just been talking out of my ass. That's embarrassing.
We have someone who goes by the name Chubs. Joining us as a speaker, Happy Epochs End Chubs,
welcome. Epochs End. Yeah, I think I saw that. See if post the other day last night,
and I think the abstains are in relation to their own evaluation framework, not constitutionality,
because obviously they're no longer part of the Inter-constitution Committee. Correct. Correct.
Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you for the clarity. For the clarity on that.
So what what was interesting though, not to add confusion or FUD, is the Ah,
the unique rationale for the IOG proposals, whereas the other abstained proposals were
just the the line about the evaluation framework. So that was kind of interesting,
just to see a a little bit more poignant description around those IOG ones. So,
did they only abstain from IOGs proposals, or did they abstain abstain
from All the core entity proposals. No, not just core entity. No, no. There's a number of them,
community dev ones, and and others that just didn't specifically align.
The the The abstain was that they weren't opposed, but it didn't didn't quite meet the the threshold
within their evaluation framework. To right, right, right, right, right. Yeah,
to to give it an outright green light. But everything they everything else was was
pretty much green light. Of course, I will have to know here. That an abstain is a removal
of your influence completely from the vote, reducing the total, and not voting against
and not voting for. So, abstinence against an IO proposal is not an attack on it;
it is removing your influence altogether. Which I think is a great standard for them,
as long as they can uphold that for like themselves too. Because they had a card on a proposal in,
and I'm not sure if that was if that was something they abstained on or not. Yeah,
I think the abstain is it's a it's a great um a great tool to that even.
D reps should be looking to use, particularly if they can't get across the thirty nine.
But even in general, you know, prior to these pleasure withdrawals, when we saw
the various info actions and things come through, like you know,
there's enough shouldn't be there to for D reps to to utilize that a little bit more. I think
the era of Voltaire has begun. We are part of a select amount of people in human history
who have had these tools. Capabilities at our fingertips, but what will we do with these tools?
That that's up to us. Five days at a time. Andrew, you have your hand up, sir.
That is incredibly kind of you. Please go ahead. Yeah, I wanted to actually kind of pull the room
on something I I find to be concerning about some of the treasury withdrawals,
the processes that our boy Pi has gone through. He's been very transparent about it, which,
by the way, I do applaud him for his transparency in the in the matter, but.
It is kind of concerning that seems like he's only going to use Sunday Swap and their USDM pool
and USDM in general to like stable up for some of these treasury withdrawals.
I feel like that is like heavily leaning into my whole cabal picking the winners thing narrative.
I don't think it's good for us. And as some of the people pointed out in his commentary, Andrew,
just just why that would be an issue for those of us who ah have small brands.
I love talking about this. So. Sunday swap. Just conceptually, you know, on a conceptual level,
we don't need to like. Charles Company A is the choice decks for the transactions to be ran through
into Charles Stable Coin B. All done by Charles Auditor. You get what I'm saying. But so is
that the heart of the issue here? Is that these are Charles Hoskinson related projects?
I wouldn't care if it was the cheapest option, but it was not. In fact,
I think Sunday only had like up until this sort of thing, like the third largest pool
of USDM liquidity. Like we literally lost like five six thousand dollars worth. But Andrew,
just to play devil's advocate, is it is it fair to say like that's similar to saying oh well
this D rep has a lot of power and so therefore they there must be some corruption happening? I mean,
sometimes projects are able to make shrewd choices that lead to large capital inflows.
And for the record, he rationalized it doesn't make you and defended his position. I get it. Yeah,
he defended his position with something along the lines of familiarity with the tooling
on Sunday Swap, which makes sense considering he designed Sunday Swap. Right. But like I said,
I just I as an Ada holder, like I said, this is my soapbox. I love talking about this sort of shit,
but it is more concerning to see it in practice, and I feel like it lends
enormous credence to you know lunatics like myself and my cabal benefit cabal narrative to see it
like live. You get what I'm saying? I I mean. A different perspective is that Amaro did
their own budget request and their own treasury withdrawal. So unlike the Intersect one,
those funds actually belong now. They're in full custody of the Amaro team, not in Intersect.
So by voting for that proposal, right, people voted to give them the funds,
and that's that's the end of it. Yeah, but like now we're triple taxing though.
Like Intersect takes five percent. What the Sunday? Intersect does not take five percent.
Intersect doesn't take five percent. Intersect gets there's no there's no five percent anymore.
That's gone. And even if there was this, this money hasn't touched Intersect.
It didn't go through Intersect. Was not involved in any capacity. It was just directly
from the chain to the Amaro. Is that good or is that bad? What does that mean? Yeah,
I don't know if that's less concerning or more concerning that we're just going to give it to people
to do like that. I don't know, man. I mean, if if people it was clear in the proposal,
and if people voted for it, then they trust the Amaro team to deliver.
It was my understanding that Amaro selected Pi to be their budget administrator. Yeah,
and if Amaro does not deliver, then you wouldn't fund them in the future. But would Andrew?
Would that be if if you had your choice of budget administrators? Wouldn't you think
that Pi would be someone who has adequate experience and technical skill?
To I'm not gonna at all question his technical skill because he's light years beyond me.
So you won't catch me being retarded like that. But I will say that I at all do not trust anybody
who's willing to choose their own business and their own business interests over saving.
The treasury money. Does that make sense? I'm more of a austerity kind of person.
It's not saving the treasury money because they already got a finite amount of ADA,
and this is basically we gave the ADA. Phil, like I feel the same way about that. No, no,
but the ADA came from the treasury, right? Basically, they said in in the proposal,
Amar is going to cost this much ADA, right? And the community looked at the proposal and said, okay,
well, the value proposition is we get a new node and we pay this much ADA. Now,
whatever they do with that much data, you know they can. If they fuck around and lose it all,
then you know that's on them. But we gave them the data already. It's not
like they they can return it or anything. It's they said this is how much it's going to cost,
and and that's the the end result. We have a new speaker joining us, guys. It's well,
we have Yukon Gold, but before we go to Yukon Gold, let's go to
the wonderful mystery, the pseudo scientist with his hand up. Happy Epochs end. Welcome.
How are you, mystery? We can't hear you if you're speaking right now. Yeah, got a pro setup,
so I always have to remember to flip the interface switch on. Thank you, everybody.
Happy Epoch's end. I really, you know, was triggered on the Amaro proposal,
so I really wanted to make a comment then. When the info action hit, it was very clear
that they were their own administrator, and you know the community really supported the note,
which the my conflict isn't with that, right? I think that absolutely is going to benefit
other developers. But what was concerning is the fact that, you know, no one was really considering
that administration. They hadn't published the contract yet, and this was purely like, hey,
the concept like we're going to produce a new node and we're going to take money with us being
the full custody of these funds, and the entire community voted in favor of this. And you know,
Phil, I'm going to point this to you because when we were in the CC election, you know,
I was really even during the Constitution, I was really for the CC having powers of interpretation.
Because in our current ecosystem, this is absolutely the only safeguard that we have to block
certain proposals. If we didn't have this opportunity to give the CC to vote, you know,
someone could say, you know, this administration plan we don't believe is
sufficient to be constitutional. And you know, on this aspect, I think this is a key concept
for anyone in the CC to keep in mind. You know, when we say unconstitutional,
this is a perspective that a single individual has that there is a conflict
with the constitutional text, right? And everyone is given the opportunity to make
their own individual assessments. However, the definition, as observed by the Cardano blockchain,
is what is made constitutional is that which has passed the CCs threshold. So, you know,
in our current ecosystem, this aspect of selecting and being very Discriminatory on these proposals
in our current infrastructure seems to be the only mechanism that we have to counterbalance
these proposals. And you know, I would, being that you were recently elected here,
I would really love your comment on that. And if that is not the view you share,
what views will you do have to implement mechanisms so we do have that control?
Incredible question, Misteri. Are you there, Phil? We can't hear you.
We can't hear you, Phil, but we love you. And he's gone. He probably rucked out his cycle bag. Hey,
Phil, welcome back, sir. Okay, great. You guys can hear me. Yes, sir.
I didn't quite catch what explicitly the you were looking for. What type of control?
It would just be the ability to ensure that bad "quote unquote" proposals don't pass to
community vote. Right. Uh. And. How would you want this control to be manifested? I mean,
there's a few ways you can have this. One, if people are approving malicious proposals,
then you can. Well, one is what is the definition of bad? Is bad unconstitutional? Yeah, yeah,
that's what you mean, right, Mister? Again, the unconstitutional would be the scope from the CC.
So my view is that we have this mechanism in the CC having powers of interpretation. In my view,
the alternative is to probably have explicit text say, "Oh, you know, a valid administration.
" Plan is a plan attached in whatever section of the proposal and has X, Y, and Z. Well,
now you have just set the exact criteria for bad quote bad proposals to hit those marks,
but still technically qualify for constitutionality, right? So, I'm curious on you know
because your view was that the powers of interpretation aren't enough; that we need clearer lines.
And my question is, how do we how do we actually Get a better and nuanced system
than giving individuals the power to interpret this on their own, and then the community has
the leverage against the CC if they don't agree with that. I I think this is exactly what
the mechanism was intended to be. And as a constitutional delegate, you know,
I was one of the only people that was speaking against putting definitions in the constitution.
Because to me, this is the bullet that the CC has. And you know, early on,
I was kind of adversarial to the CC. I was very worried about DREPs being censored
and things like that. And you know, during the process, I completely changed.
I feel that that's probably our best mechanism until we have maybe some other guardrails
or other on-chain mechanisms. But I'm very curious to what your thoughts are, because you know,
you you have a you know a lot more technical understanding on this, so I'm really curious. Yeah,
so it's very hard to have a community override of the CC because if the community already voted.
You know, past the support threshold, then the expectation is that you know,
if the community all of a sudden, if we want to have the community be able to come in
and say this action is dangerous, that that doesn't seem feasible because the majority
of the community stake weighted must have supported it for it to even get to that threshold.
So I don't think we can use that as a mechanism because yeah, you know, if it got to that point,
that means the community has seen sufficient support in it. I, to be honest,
I have the opposite perspective. I think the CC It is very dangerous in its ability to abuse
its power and just reject proposals that the community wants and are valuable for the chain.
And this is why I was very strongly for a definition, lest to exist in the constitution to restrict
the level of judgment that they could have against the community who might have
popular support for things. Yeah, and I think we've already seen this in practice,
and I think we'll see it more in the future. And it's very important to hold.
CC members to a standard because yeah I mean the CC can decide yeah this isn't good for the chain
but you know it's not your decision to make if if we allow the CC to make that decision
then Cardano becomes a multisig and we don't want Cardano to be a multisig we want it to be
on-chain governance which means if the community wants something I don't want it I still vote
yes it's constitutional even if I personally don't think it's Well, and to that point,
we should really be focusing sustained energy and conversation to the Constitution.
What does it mean? What does what What do these lines mean? What do these sections mean?
I know we went over these things, and but it's it's not just a one and done. Hey,
we have a Constitution now, right? It it should be something that we're constantly.
It needs refined over time because I disagree with I disagree with Phil's position of
if the community wants it, it's constitutional just because of the popular support.
I think there's a process for updating the constitution to make sure that that becomes enshrined
and therefore verified by the CC members by being directed by the community. So go through process,
which is very bureaucratic, as everybody loves to say, but like it's a process
so that you can formalize the standard rather than having it, which apparently is something that
people are allergic to on Cardano. No, I I don't I agree with you 100.
I don't think you should vote like personally. If something is unconstitutional,
clearly I will vote it unconstitutional. And yeah, the solution is having the. But you,
but what what you may be able to do is in your voting of it being unconstitutional,
put a commentary in that this, given the level of popular support that exists,
this may be something to revisit in the constitutional text. So like acknowledge. Yeah, yeah.
But what what I will do is, if something is you know on the edge, right?
There's a lot of room for interpretation, and one person could interpret it as unconstitutional,
and another will interpret it could interpret it as constitutional. In that situation,
I'm going to err on the side of constitutional because I don't think it's my job to make
these decisions if they're not concretely there. That's a position you can take,
and then the community can decide whether or not they believed in that being correct.
So that's the good follow up to that is there's no runaway par because people can go like, well,
screw you if you do something they don't like. Yeah, I'm just concerned with you know the whole idea
of the CC was the impartial impartiality of it, right? If you're saying that you're influenced by
the community opinion, that in itself is a bias. You're supposed to. I'm not influenced by
the community decision at all. Well, my decision will be if there is room for interpretation,
and the answer is not clear. It doesn't matter if the proposal has community support or not.
If it's not clearly defined in the text of the constitution, you'll defer in some ways
to the sentiment to it being constitutional. No, not to the sense. I don't care about the sentiment.
Oh, if it's absent, whether people want it or not. Okay. If the if the constitutional
does not concretely say this is unconstitutional, then I will say it's.
I will say it is constitutional. Right. Whether I agree with the proposal or not. Because you know,
if I do the opposite, then I'm explicitly overriding the will of the community,
whatever that will is. Right? I don't care whether it's popular or not in the community.
My thought is that you know, it is not up to the CC to you know, because there's so much room
for interpretation. For any given action, you know, I could find some minute criteria to say
this is unconstitutional, and I think that's that would be disastrous.
We want people to engage in governance, and we don't want to punish them for doing so. So,
unless something is clearly unconstitutional, I will vote that it is constitutional, regardless of
how much community support there is. I'll just make this final. Oh, go ahead. Final statement,
because yeah, I see Bikram's here too, but I just want to express my view that the my view is
that there is no such thing as constitutional until the CEC makes that determination. Until then,
you have nothing but people's interpretation of whether there is conflict
with the constitutional text. So when you say one person says there's there's it's unconstitutional,
that's one person's interpretation, and then then another. But we only observe
the CC's interpretation, and even in doing so, making that assessment is an interpretation.
So I would like to urge people to look at things. The constitutionality is a threshold to pass,
not something that is inherently given. But I'll drop down from here. Very interesting perspective,
Mister. Yeah, thank you. So real quick, I just want a final response to this is. Yes,
but we have to agree as an ecosystem that the constitution has concrete things that have no room
for interpretation. If the constitution says a proposal must have X, Y, Z,
and then someone on the CC. You know, vote something's constitutional,
and the proposal does not have X, Y, Z. Then you know we have to say that they're acting in
bad faith because that is a violation of the text. So, as an ecosystem,
we have to agree there is some concrete wording. And my point, and I think Johnny's point as well,
is we need to remove as much ambiguity as possible from the constitution
and make it so that it's all worded concretely, so we don't wind up in these situations where.
Five people have unilateral control over the future of the chain because there's
so much subjectivity, right? This the CC the Constitution as it exists right now is bad,
and it should not be up for interpretation. And the final result should not just be a threshold.
It should be, does the Constitution say this or not, right? That's what you want.
You don't want individuals controlling the future of the chain. I would just point out that it being
such a bad constitution, I feel like it is the responsibility, like sudo said,
for people to interpret it in a way that protects Cardano, because we do know that there are flaws
in this current current version, and I do agree with Johnny's point
that we need to be pushing to change certain aspects of this. Beautiful conversation, guys.
Thank you for the patience of the speakers who have not gotten into the conversation. Sorry, Vikram.
We we appreciate your patience. Let's go to Vikram, and then we'll go to Kiwi. But Vikram, hello,
sir. Happy Epoch send. How are you, buddy? Yeah, I'm fine. How are you? No complaints, sir.
What's going on? Yeah, I just came here for the discussions regarding, you know,
you guys are discussing about the governance, right? That's correct, the governance. Yeah.
So basically, the why blockchain need governance, you know. So first questions always came to
your mind, like why the you know this governance model is important. I mean, basically, you know,
you can achieve hundred percent decentralization. No matter what you do, I mean,
no matter what kind of constitution you create, what kind of things you do,
you cannot achieve 100% decentralizations with a governance model. You know. So basically,
you know the the the D rep concept. You know the the D rep concept is actually the representative,
like you know, yeah, like your voting your yeah parliamentary people in your real elections,
and that that is in blockchain. You know, your representative, you are electing someone. You know,
some model is uniquely you know copied from the real constitutions. So you know, so I mean, that's
why. Yeah. You're losing me a little bit. Sorry. Just conceptually, I mean, I mean the concept,
you know, the concept of the governance is actually copied from the you know real constitutions
and the real way the election process has been happening, you know. Right. You you are yeah.
So you know your drape, you know your drape is actually like you know your leaders. In your town,
you know, so simple the that representative concept is actually copied from there.
So you know the blockchain, you know the blockchain. Why need the blockchain governance? You know,
so that's a tricky question. You know, so basically it's government government
actually giving priority to the projects who is working on the governance model because you know
governments want to roll out their you know election systems in blockchain. You know,
next two to three years, you know you can see they are going to prioritize this model
so they can implement the blockchain into their own election systems. So you know,
it's really unique research, and you can find lots of loopholes. But you know,
you need you need to add the amendment. You know, you need to add the amendment concept
in the constitutions also. You know, otherwise it will make no sense. Oh, we we can amend it. Yeah,
I mean, it's it's built into the system, so someone can put a constitution. I mean,
no nobody talking about this. You know, the amendment thing. How do amendment thing?
Literally just talked about fresh out of the oven too. I mean, the constitution just. I mean,
you know, the amendment is a thing that make constitution better. Without amendment, you know,
you will stuck. Yeah, that was the nature of the discussion. Just as the need to the need to amend
the constitution over time. We're all agreeing. We're all agreeing with each other. No, I mean,
I don't read. I didn't. I didn't read the Cardano Constitution. You know,
I am working on the narrative. I got an NFT of it, if you'd like. No, I I read the narrative
of the governance model. We should all read the constitution, though. Yeah, no,
I I. You can go back to just you can go back to spaces where it's been read in full back in the day.
Or big room, you can buy a juke boy, and then in our landing page on Discord,
we have the entire text of the Constitution and all of the important resources to help
you get started here in your journey. So you know, I think someone should make a musical version.
No, no, no! I absolutely disagree. Please don't. My question is for Phil. So,
do you do you think you know the amendment process in the you know Cardano Constitution? Is easy
or the real world amendment process in the Constitution easy? It's gonna be hard as fuck.
But it's like the real world one in the US, bro. It's hard as fuck. It's like
sixty-seven percent majority, and then like two-thirds of the states have to ratify. Like it, yeah.
The Cardano Constitution, yeah. In Cardano, in Cardano, an amendment is seventy-five percent
of active states need to support an amendment. Yeah, Cardano, yeah, Cardano don't have
any opposition. Then definitely have to disagree with that. You You guys are all throwing out
some incredible. Yeah, but Kiwi's got his hand up. So long, it's going to fall off. Sorry, Kiwi.
Is Potato Man still here? By the way. Happy epochs and Kiwi. Thank you for your patience.
How are you, sir? Hey guys. So, an amendment process should be difficult. Otherwise,
everyone will be throwing shit at it, and it'll be amended left, right, and fucking centre daily.
And then you'll have big businesses wanting it amended to fit them. You don't want
an amendment process to be easy. It needs to be difficult, and it needs to be set in a way that
anything harmful to Cardano is instantly ignored and removed. Now, I think for a first crack,
who the hell's hitting the bong that hard? Fuck, back off, bro. Van, van,
our our greatest host is always hitting that bong. No, like for a first crack
at global decentralized governance, I think we're doing a pretty fucking good job here, guys.
It's a good start. Now, I agree with Bikram that no governance structure can be fully decentralized,
but I'll add the tag: yet we haven't got the tech to make it fully decentralized yet. Absolutely,
but it can be. And we will get there, given enough time, enough tech, and AI is going to be
our saving grace with that, because it will be able to run the fundamental day-to-day runnings
and minor changes and things like that of monitoring the capabilities of the chain,
with the rant what needs changing parameter-wise for the better, and obviously checking in with us
to make sure that everything is okay. Maybe putting up a quick vote when necessary.
A lot of this will be AI handled in the future and the minor shit, and it's only the bigger shit
that we're going to have to worry about and focus on. That's going to free us up to actually do
the right things. Yeah, nothing but time. Disagrees with you. Look, I'm gonna I'm gonna add in
on that. If you see the level of shit that is going on at the moment, and I'm gonna post one
at the top. I just posted to like while I was listening to you guys. Um, the level of interference
and control that is going on now, and we need to be wary of, and we need to be ahead of it.
And this is part of where the governance structure really needs to shine.
Banks are interfering with games now, saying, "Oh, you can't speak badly
about the banking structure. You can't have certain levels of pornography
or stuff in in your platforms." They're interfering with Valve, Steam.
They're interfering with Epic Games. They're saying what they can and can't have on their platforms.
Banks are, and they're withholding payment rights. Like Steam is going through financial crisis
at the moment because the banks of I think it was one of the Stripe or one of them has turned around
and said, "No, we're not letting you do anything until you fucking." Come to the party
and and agree on some terms with us, so they've had to make a new terms change.
So this is the level of control we're facing now, and if we don't figure this out
and get it decentralized properly and have a hundred percent ownership of our fucking chain,
we're screwed, dude. Great point, Kiwi. I would love to piggyback off of that, Ben. Yeah,
just for yeah. Go ahead, sir. One quick moment. Uh, back to the austerity point. This is.
Two things. One, I do believe that decentralized governance is possible with enough time,
which is one of the reasons why austerity is key to make sure that this treasury lasts, even
if we cannot improve volume in the near term. Right, that's a very real threat, in my opinion.
That's why I do care so much about how those resources are used in the future.
I did do a lot of research on how Polygon, I mean, not Polygon, Polkadot implemented governance
and the absolute mess that became of their blockchain treasury and all that stuff.
So there's an enormous potential for waste here. And although I agree,
we need to be able to protect ourselves from Outside influence from big financial institutions,
I would wager that the promise we've been given to protect us has been more
or less from Charles saying that the founding entities need a right to vote to protect us
and throw in voting support. I disagree strongly with that, and that's why I believe
the Constitution should have allowed for us to blacklist certain UTXOs. That's a very radical take.
I know, Johnny, you don't like that, but dude, we gotta have a way to protect ourselves.
And honestly, we can't trust an opaque entity, regardless of their ties to Cardano, past, present,
or future, to do that. Right, we have to be able to implement something on chain in the code
or the SIP or the Constitution that allows us the ability to do that sort of stuff.
And I think the first people that need, you know, blacklisted would be the Genesis Ada recipients.
But that's been my take for well over a year. So, as always, Andrew, you come with you.
You always serve it up hot and ready. So if you're not ready to eat, can I can I say something?
Then don't can I say hello? Can I say something? I can hear your voice. I can hear you. I can.
And I don't know if you're able to see that there is a hand raised, a hand emoji from Yukon Gold.
Thank you, guys. Let's just try to let's try to adhere to the the hand
raising order of operations here. But Yukon, happy Epoch's end. Welcome. Glad you made it.
Can you hear me? It's pretty rough, buddy. But what's going on? Oh, okay. Sorry,
maybe my air conditioner is blowing in my mic or something. Well, I guess you know I came up earlier
because. Of the self self administered funds, right or whatever, and I mean that was made clear
from the beginning that that was legit. Like you could you could administer your own funds,
so I don't see any problem with putting them in a dex if it's my own dex or another dex or what.
So that comment, I don't get it. And and now we're talking about we need to blacklist UTXOs
in governance, and like we came into blockchain for censorship resistance and all that shit,
and the first thing we want to do is start censoring shit. Like what the fuck is
all this conversation about? Okay, I understand. It's been expressed. It's been expressed.
Opinion of one person in the conversation. Well, and then earlier there was the conversation about.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but earlier there was the conversation, and I, and and you know, Phil,
Phil already convinced me that this is because it's opt-in and it's my wallet and all that, right?
And honestly, the average user isn't going to be using that SIP that he's talking about.
It's going to be for institutions and things. But yeah, just all this talk of censorship
and blacklisting and, I don't know, man. It's like I feel like that's not the cypherpunk shit
that I came here for. Yeah, I mean, same could be said for almost all institutional involvement
in crypto, though. The thing is, I'm only worried about my money, right?
I'm not worried about this other fictional money that's out here that's not my money, right?
It's not my money that's sitting in the treasury, right? I have been that guy that's like,
not with my money, not my marketing dollars. You're not going to spend it on that bullshit.
I have said that before, but I realize it's not my money. You know what I mean? And I'm not,
you know. Now, we do need to judiciously use that money, and it'd be best not to get fleeced. So,
so I'm with all the sentiments, but I don't know, man. I feel like, well, let's, you know,
somebody mentioned, somebody said slippery slope earlier, you know. Let Let's. No, I agree,
and and let's just for context here. When you have ADA in a private wallet that only you control,
you have stake in the network. You have, in a very literal sense, a piece of ownership
over the engine that is Cardano. So you know there's all these layers to it. But anyways,
as the amount of stake you hold, you know, relative to other people participating in the network,
changes, your, you know, influence over the treasury is going to change, right? And so, anyways,
it's just five days at a time. You know, we get these snapshots, and we're in
a whole new environment every five days. And maybe in in a year or two.
You're listening to Epoch Sand, everybody. Happens every five days. Every five days at
the end of Epoch. Remember to retweet the space. Retweet the space. I haven't been here
in some time, so I'm just going to go through the numbers. Yes, it's brought to you by
Weed Stake Pool. That's W-E-E-D Stake Pool, where you can stake, smoke, earn, and remember,
we educate. Incredible, Johnny. It was a little fast though. Just kind of lean back. Well,
because there are times that I'm ignoring them, and I wanted to get back to it.
But once you get the ball rolling, just fucking just live it. You know, it is what it is. But yeah,
thank you guys for your patience, Bikram, and then Phil. Thank you guys for the hands. Go ahead,
Bikram. Make it snappy, Bikram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No rush. No, no, no. I'm just, you know,
I just want to say to the, you know, whatever, shaggy, you know, you change your fucking name, bro.
Anyways, so back to the point, you know, you said we can at you. Bikram,
let's not start cursing now, because then it creates a snowball effect, starts rolling downhill.
We're all cursing each other. Oh fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Okay. Okay, so bro,
I just you know from the serious you know it's my serious profile, it's my real profile,
so I am serious with this profile. You want to have fun, so I can come back
with another pervert profile and have some fun. Okay. No, we don't want trolling.
We're trying to have a real conversation. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just, you know, back to the point.
You know, you you said Shaggy, you said you decentralizations can be achieved, right?
So do do you know how it it is, you know? So if you see the current current election model,
you know, the democracy is entirely depend on elections, right? Without elections,
you can't protect the democracy in your country. So election is the systems that can protect
the democracy. So check out the Chinese. They don't have elections. They, you know,
they don't do any kind of elections in. So their economy is booming, like you know. So
because they don't have to spend money for protecting democracy. So look at what happened in India,
bro. So in our country, we spend like one third of the GDP for conducting elections. So
if you ask anybody, you want democracy or you want food. So the people definitely want food.
So people don't have you know any choices for what democracy is. You know.
So democracy will die if you do not cut these expenses from this real world.
I mean the election process, literally you know. Take one third of the budget of the national,
you know, and that is the main cause of the national debt because of the election systems, you know.
So if you achieve decentralizations in blockchain, that's when it's a real world breakthrough,
and you can implement these things into the real world, and you can save ninety percent
of the election cost, and you can save the democracy. So that's a very big thing. Well said, sir.
Very well said. You know, I I see kiwi. Your hand is up. Just for everybody in here,
I I just remembered this. So Phil, not to not to glaze Phil here, but the guy is a d rep
and a constitutional committee member. Not not not many people wear a crown
with so many glistening bioilluminousent jewels encrusted within the crown as Phil does.
Truly spectacular. I'm just checking Phil's hands up to me. I just want to make sure he wasn't hit.
Ah, Phil was before you. Yes. How lucky we are to be graced with such royalty. Yeah, Kiwi, you are
one kilometer away from your speaker, bro. Yeah, you're you're a little muffled, Kiwi, but go ahead.
He was deferring his time to Phil because Phil was ahead. That's what he was saying. Okay.
There we go. That's better. Like, okay, I do agree with Gold. On the fact
that any sort of major censorship, we need to be very wary of, because that is slippery slope stuff.
We've seen where things go with that over time. You give people power to start censoring things,
and then they start censoring things for their own good, so that you can't speak against them.
Sooner or later, it may not start out that way, but it sure ends up that way. So,
if we want to start that track now, guess where it leads in the future.
Because then people will lean on one rule and say, "But we do censor this, so
why can't we censor this as well?" And that's how it ends up going. So.
I don't think that's a good way to go. I do think that keeping it as free as possible
and letting community, like basically, blast anyone who's doing the wrong thing,
is fucking fantastic. And that is long term, far more useful, appropriate, and so on.
Teaching people to actually speak up for what they believe in and start actually being aware
when things are going wrong that they need to say they don't like it. So that's what we need more
than censorship. We need training and education that people can say no, it's not all right.
The other thing, the other thing I want to add, yeah. Oh well, yeah. Love and kindness goes so far,
but being able to say "fuck off," excuse me, I'll stop with the cursing, but being able to say "nah,
not good enough, don't you dare" is also damn good, and people need to be able to do it.
Because as much as peace, love, and drugs are one wonderful way to handle some things,
being able to beat somebody over the head with a baton and say, you know, "piss off,
we don't want you here" is another great way. So. Well, it depends on the person.
It depends on the situation. People need to be more situationally aware. That's all I'm saying here.
The other thing I wanted to say is, when it comes to the institutions and things like that,
we need to put safeguards in place so that what Bickram was talking about doesn't happen,
where over-expenditure on the people running things doesn't happen. Yeah, basically,
because people will always vote to give themselves more money, and the people
in power will always say, "Oh, but I need more to do this job. I need more." We're getting tools
and help now that make things cheaper than ever to do anything, and people need to start using
those tools instead of demanding more money. Yes, we need a fair wage to help with the people
who are going to be running it over time, as more money comes into Cardano,
as the the treasury grows to you know an actual wealth fund. Then, yeah,
a fair living cost for people who are doing full time work in running Cardano, absolutely.
But I mean a fair cost, not politics wages, where you know you're getting
a couple of hundred thousand dollars to sit around and sleep in a parliament.
No wasteful shit should be allowed, and we need to have that in the constitution.
I think Phil disagrees with you because he has he's had to stand up for a while. Go go ahead, Phil.
No, I mean it's about the SIP. The discussion for the SIP has nothing to do with blacklisting
or any form of censorship. The purpose of the SIP is that right now you can send funds
to any wallet, whether you know they want to receive those funds or not.
And the context where this is important is smart contracts, because right now a smart contract
cannot trust anything, and it is like impossible to develop like cutting-edge complex applications
on Cardano when, by default, you have to consider every single thing as untrusted. So, yeah,
the the zip has nothing to do with like enhancing the ability to censor things
or anything like that. Right? It's just it requires a witness to receive assets,
which means when a smart contract is receiving something, it can reject it and say, no,
this is this data, you know. Isn't true, or it's like malicious data. Forgive me,
but can't that be built into the smart contracts instead of building it into the base layer? No,
like a smart contract can have that capability. Fundamentally, right now,
smart contracts do not execute when they only execute when you send funds from the smart contract,
not to the smart contract, right? And this is the. But couldn't you request a signature
from the receiver to be able to receive the funds? So right now, right,
if you go to the Sunday Swap smart contract, you can send to that smart contract any UTXO
with any datum you want. So you can go try to convince that contract, send it a UTXO,
and try to convince it, okay, this is a Sunday Swap pool. People, please trade against this pool.
And there's nothing that that contract can do to prevent you from doing that. Yeah. It's nothing.
Attack vector, basically. At the end of the day, yeah, it's an attack vector.
It exists on every smart contract on Cardano, and you have to do as a developer a massive amount
of work to build a DApp because of it. You can't just have UTXOs. You have to have every single UTXO
needs a state token in it, and the token guarantees that the data is like a real pool, right?
And then you have a minting policy for this token, and then you need to make sure these tokens
can never be smuggled out of the DApp because if they can, then I can, you know, smuggle it out
and then use the token to go send you a UTXO, and your app will believe.
You know whatever whatever I tell it to. So it's actively knocking the legs out from
under the platforms as they're trying to build. Yeah, yeah. So it's like you're trying to build,
and by default, you now have to not just worry about your application,
but you have to worry about like a million things to make sure that you know you have to
by default consider every single piece of data at the smart contract as adversarial, as malicious,
and you can never trust anything. And this makes developing contracts
on Cardano a logistical nightmare. To the point where even like core developers
cannot develop applications. To the point where developing anything takes a massive amount of time
and understanding and reasoning about security, and this is awful. What what you've what
you've shared too though has been non coercive. I mean, the proposal is not saying
this will be required. This is just an option that can be adopted. Yeah,
it's an option that makes it so smart contracts don't just run when you send funds from them,
but also when you send funds to them. And this just makes Cardano much easier to develop in.
It makes it much cheaper to deploy applications. It just improves security
and robustness of the ecosystem. Well, we have was it was it Andrew first, I think,
and then we'll go to Kiwi. Perfect, because I really like where Kiwi was taking this.
And by the way, I do appreciate all y'all's takes on the whole blacklisting of UTXOs.
I know it's an unpopular opinion; it's just my opinion. So thank you for input on that. But Kiwi,
you said something about the like paying essentially a bureaucratic layer of sorts,
and Bikram alluded to this regarding India. I want to. For a change, actually,
not be fearmongering on this topic yet, because I want to point out a few things. Right now,
with governance being so new, I've had the pleasure of being able to work on something called
the Extended DREP Metadata SIP. So they've been working on building out extended metadata
for DREPs to better be identified. Now that As a SIP doesn't really do anything, but once adopted,
will allow interfaces to exist, such as gov tools and all these other governance ones. Once again,
something to talk about is how many gov tool platforms do we need? I don't know,
but we're going to fund a lot of them at first because we got to see what works and what doesn't,
and what has the best results. But I think that the extended metadata stuff.
And the human ecosystem mapping thing that Ben from IO has been bouncing around the ideas on
will help enormously in allowing d reps to have better visibility and specifically people being
able to connect with d reps who fit their needs. Right, one of the problems we have with d reps is
there's really no means or centralized location for people to go and find their d reps outside
of these current governance platforms, which are pretty bare bones and basic right now.
That That can improve, but it also requires us to improve the metadata associated with the DREPs,
so that they can, although maybe optional, include data including like where they're from,
what language they speak. You know, I'm saying all these different things that will help people find
who they are, what their interests are, and like essentially navigate their platform.
That'll help resolve a lot of the issues we see with the community, where we currently,
as Cardanians, defer immediately to well, it needs to be an education thing.
We kind of got to build the tooling and the platforms, the UI, so that they don't have to be
so highly educated on governance and can instead have an easier time finding these delegates
and then keeping an eye on their voting record. Right, because that's the other thing.
Just delegating isn't the thing if your d rep is not going to vote the way that you need them to.
You need to be able to see that in an easy to find manner, and then make decisions based off
of that. Right. So this is one of the reasons why I support Ben when it comes to
the ecosystem mapping idea and the extended metadata SIP. It all helps in visibility,
which I think is a bigger challenge for d reps right now to add to their many. So yeah,
but it was great. So I can what a thoughtful, nuanced take that you have there, Andrew. Yeah,
basically, it's okay for us to spend a lot more, a lot more money on the bureaucratic layers
right now, because we kind of have to. We don't have satisfactory tools. That's my take.
And then looks like Johnny is waving his hand violently. Epochs about the end. Well,
you want to be a little more exact, Johnny? What? Where's the? Where two minutes? A minute
and thirty? Two minutes. Two minute warning. This is your two minute warning.
Where the fuck is Blake? Get your accounts in order, people. Epoch five seventy two is ending.
I'll I'll make mine quick then. Um. Yeah, I mean, if the SIP coming up ensures better security
and and much easier control of smart contracts for building on Cardano, then absolutely,
it's going to be a fantastic thing. I only have a couple of questions about that.
Does it affect the way the average user uses, like send, receive, and so on, like that?
Does it cost considerably more to operate that on the chain, or is it pretty much same same
for everyone except the the people building smart contracts? Yeah, active users
will not be affected at all, right? Unless you wanted to, like, you know, create a wallet
where you would have to like Like, you know, wallets may adopt it and then allow you to choose.
Like, okay, I want to create like this new type of wallet, and then you know,
whenever someone sends funds to you, there would be like a pop-up in your wallet saying,
"Do you want to accept these funds or not?" It will not affect the chain load. In fact,
it will make everything much more efficient because, yeah, right now, basically 80%
of the chain load is spent redundantly validating stuff because all the smart contracts
have to consider everything as malicious. So smart contracts can't trust anything.
So anytime they do anything, they need to, you know, run a ton of checks
and compensation on the chain to say is this like safe data, whatever.
And like every person you meet, you have to give them a full pat down,
body check to say they have weapons on. Yeah, yeah. And basically, I say if it adds to
the chain's capabilities, gives more options without creating walls, absolutely, it should be done.
Yes, then please go to the SIP and click the thumbs up button. Thank you.
Cardano Improvement Proposal. That's all Phil's trying to do, people.
Just help fill improve Cardano. Do you not? You don't want that. That's all he's proposing. Yeah,
I can do that, but nobody gonna take my advice. What do you mean, Bikram? We all,
we all hear you out. We all hear what you have to say. Yeah, you know, it's it's a different thing.
You know, it's just like a real world. Yeah, you can talk. Bikram, I'm sorry to cut you off
because I I do hear you really, but we this is the end of the Ecrum. Ecrum. The epoch. Bikram.
Let's all just let's savor this moment here together.
Let's all just breathe in this fresh, delicious 573 air that we all get to enjoy together.
Sometimes you just got to show up and survive, and even that feels like a a battle. Oh,
I just want to take I just want to take this wonderful moment at the end of one epoch
and at the beginning of the other to wish Mike Horn and a happy birthday,
and everybody should definitely sing happy birthday for Mike. Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, my cornum. Happy birthday to you. How many more?
He's thumbs dining all the way. Happy birthday, Mike. Dude, that's why we got to do it.
It's okay to get older, man. Just grown men are so embarrassed when people start singing
happy birthday to them, and sometimes it's a humbling experience. We all got to go through it.
And just for full disclosure, it's not actually Mike's birthday. This has been a troll
that's been happening to him multiple times this week, and I'm perpetuating. Wow,
the fact that you would so shamelessly. And many more on channel four. Well,
that's see you guys again tomorrow for Mike's birthday. I will never sing you happy birthday again,
Mike, because of what you've done here today. Mike's coming up. Hey, I'm just gonna button and say
happy new epic. It's been a fantastic conversation. I got to go, but um, oh, don't leave, Kiwi.
Keep it up, guys. I'll hopefully be back, but no guarantees. Have a good New York. But yeah,
keep up the conversations, guys, because this is this is the stuff of gold. Like we'll get there.
We're giving giving a bit of time. The gang is back in town. Have a good, have a good day, Kiwi,
and happy birthday, Mike. Welcome. It's not my birthday. You know, Mike.
There's something that is not related to you in any way. So this is a really brutal segue.
But happy Epochs, answer. I, I just, I got to get this off my chest because Andrew,
you've been here today, speaking with us, sharing these wonderful perspectives and and these subtle,
nuanced takes on all these different challenges that we face as a community.
And it popped into my head that. There was a tweet that you put out, and I don't mean to put you
on blast for this, but it was it was so gnarly, and I I realized I haven't spoken to you since that,
I don't think, and I was just wondering if you know what I'm referencing, or if if you
if does it involve helicopter crashes? It does, yes. Ah, yes, that tweet. It was vitriolic,
and and very. I mean, I got to say it was hateful, man. I mean, it just. I don't know.
I don't mean to put you on blast. I just I do remember being taken aback by it at the time. Oh yeah,
fun threats. That was really hateful, and you know Charles both commented on that tweet. Yeah,
so it makes he reposted the tweet. Yeah, it makes. What the most with the passage of time, though,
Andrew, and and you know the the shifts that we experience over the epochs. I mean,
where do you stand on that whole experience now, if you don't mind? Are you asking my feelings
on him, or when you look back at that happening, what what do you what do you feel? I don't know.
I I dude, I'm kind of messed up in the head when it comes to like. I get
great enjoyment from angering this man. At this point, I have had an adversarial relationship
with him since he blocked me for asking questions on a Twitter space. He invited me
to co-host with him last year, so I don't no love lost on that. I've said some much more vile things
to his buddy JJ, who DM'd me regarding a bunch of shit. So I have very little in the way of remorse
for any of that, and I do apologize for anybody who found that offensive. Uh,
but it was not directed towards you, and I do feel that any time the token founder Passes away,
tokens tend to pump. It's almost like art, right? Well, okay, you're making a joke out of it,
but you understand why. Oh no, I get it. There, there is there's a certain there's
certain lines where once things go into tweet form and get shared on a public platform
that have a certain, you know, you could say, just content. Uh, I, I, I assume you would expect
some people to maybe be not a fan of that, you know, even if if they may agree on. You call them,
you call them a pedophile. I don't remember that one, but I do remember. Oh yeah, yeah, I did.
I actually did say that he's. Yeah, he's. It's not. He's joining the pedophile, Colton DC.
That was the tweet. It was a meme associated with that one. You took it out of context,
but is this to elicit a response or is this a genuine? Two things, right?
One of the things I learned last year, after my first interaction with him, right,
first time he ever reposted anything I ever made, it was blatantly negative, right? And honestly,
like it's easy to engagement farm him at this point. He has me blocked on multiple accounts
and still reposts my my content. So it's kind of these are like rationalizations. There,
so they're not. No, no, no, no, no. They they are justifications in the sense that like
literally the entirety of my profile at this point with regards to Charles is to antagonize
and elicit a response. So like this is the rationale, and I feel like it has done two things: one,
to point. Out his willingness to engage with negative and hateful content over the people
who support him and projects building in the ecosystem in general. I really just like highlighting
this guy's character flaws because I'm a shitty person too, and it's easier for me to like see
that stuff in action if I myself have exhibited these same traits. Does that make sense?
A liar always knows a liar. My respect. I respect your transparency. I just. I hate the guy though.
Still. You. I mean, the the tweet specifically, I believe to to paraphrase,
was like I I pray that Charles's plane crashes, which is just dark, man. I mean, it's a helicopter.
Yeah, bro, bro. I just want to say, you know, it's really dark. And Andrew is not lying, bro.
Shaggy is a shit person. I can guarantee that, you know. No, and I'm not saying he's a.
He's been here chatting with us. The guy is passionate about Cardano, and I think that's
why in the past I've been a little caught off guard by some of your stuff. No,
it was just an engagement party, bro. You know, he used his intelligence, you know,
the emotional intelligence skill. And Charles don't have his emotional intelligence skills.
He is a very emotionally intelligent man. I will not let you. No, no, no.
Emotionally intelligent man has been remarkably easy to elicit responses from a guy who has
me blocked. That should tell you something. Yeah, he don't have any into emotional intelligence,
bro. You know. And for the record, I don't block anyone. I have one person blocked,
and it's because they kept DMing me asking me for pictures in diapers. So. Okay. Okay,
that's very weird, and that's different. So let's not deflect here. That's that's unacceptable
and not okay. I don't block. I don't. Sing in a tweet. I pray for the the the the fiery death
of someone. But what if I do, Van? No, no, no. You can do that. I'm just saying,
when you tweet that, you're really, you're really crossing over a threshold, in my opinion.
From like, hey, there's one thing to be a troll. It's at a personal level. Yes,
it's it's it's overstepping a line, in my opinion. But I'm not saying you're an evil person
or whatever. I don't know what you were. I'm just curious what was going through your mind
at that time. I think a lot more has happened on the back end. No, I think you really want to see
him die. And I think this is where, like, me as a person, me as a person, I I can acknowledge, like,
I'm not the best because, bro, I do genuinely wish ill upon this guy and his crew at this point.
And I know this sounds bad, but honestly, some of the shit that I've had to deal with from Charles
and JJ, and then the hundreds of people who come in DMs and oh yeah, death threats, all you name it,
bro. And I don't really bitch and complain about it because I know who's responsible.
And in my opinion. I'm gonna hate them until they perish. I'm younger than them.
I will outlive them. You hate me too. No, I just hate, you know, some of the crazy ass shit you say.
I don't actually hate you. Okay, I I don't have any helicopter. Also. Yeah,
it's a lot easier to stay on the ground. It's it's dark, Andrew. And you know what?
I think in your in your soul, you have a lot of love to share with the world.
And I think it's it's bursting out through your spirit. And I think you should let it shine through
every every tweet, every. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine.
It's exactly what I was thinking. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine. Let it shine,
let it shine, let it shine. I've got a whole big glory land. Go, go ahead, Kiwi. Go ahead, buddy.
Look, yeah, sorry, that's like conversation was kind of a total sidetrack. But hey,
I I get that people have emotions, but I just don't see the point of being here
if you're going to be that angry with somebody. Like, leave it alone, disappear,
don't have anything to do with them. Yeah, but it's easier because you're just being hateful,
hateful and hurtful. It's being hateful and hurtful, and all you're doing is winding yourself up
into a negative circle. You're just going to end up staying there for the rest of your life.
Get out of that though. Get out of negativity. Enormously better. Well, no, and I well can't anyway.
Anyway, that wasn't what I came up to say. What I came up to say was, by the way,
Mobius AI tool going to be trained fully on like governance issues and DE reps and stuff like that.
That is going to be one of our most helpful tools in the Cardano ecosystem for being
able to figure out a lot about what's going on with the voting, the you know
what's being talked about and things like that. So. Yeah, keep an eye on it
because it's being trained on that sort of thing, and I think near term at least,
it's going to be a really valuable tool for people who want to know more about what's going on
in the governance sphere. Thank you, Kiwi, and I wish we had Phil here.
Phil is a member of the constitutional committee, and he's a D rep. How many AI tools is Phil using?
Honestly, I'm sure he's got some incredible prompts going. Because how do you process
all this information and with these different roles? I mean, I just you'd have to be very efficient.
But anyways, what do you feel is a You know, what you feel is not a person. Is AI?
Phil is a is a very handsome young man from what I from what I can tell. Did you see X Machina,
the movie, the X Machina? Oh yeah, good. Maybe, yeah. I think Phil is X Machina. Well,
I guess we'll probably never know. Is going to use his stamina while to escape. Uh, Chubs,
you have your hand up. Please go ahead. Yeah, thanks. Look, I wanted to build on an earlier comment
from last epoch and bring it back into this new epoch from Kiwi. You know,
he was mentioning about AI tools and that the you know fully decentralized governance. You know,
we we might not have it now, but it's it's a matter of of when, and we don't have it yet.
And I think one of the sure there's tech and tools that are gonna certainly get us there,
but I think one of the One of the key things will also be mindset transformation, and you know,
speaking to myself, my myself included, is that this is uncharted territory,
and we'll all need to go through this process with with a sense of exploration
and trying to discover new new ways of not just applying the governance. Sort of the activities,
but also how we view and how we see ourselves as as individuals, as collectives,
how we want to represent the collective or the micro that is then decentralised across the globe.
So I think there's a there's part of the the governance journey that we're on
that needs to stay front of mind is that actually. The current examples that we're drawing on
to try to perhaps mimic or design our governance future off, you know,
those are already set in a past frame, and we can use those to learn from. But you know, be be open
and mindful to explore and to vision a new paradigm of how we interact
and make decisions as a collective. And I think that's that's an important piece that I wanted to,
I guess, bring into this next epoch. Thank you for that sentiment. That's something
we can all carry forward with us over these next five days. We are now in Epoch five seventy three,
everyone. It's a fresh set. It's like a it's like having a fresh carton of eggs
from the grocery store in your fridge. So much potential, so much protein. Phil,
you rejoined us as a speaker. Bikram has his hand up, but Phil, if would you care to address, um,
you know, whether or not you
and you use leverage AI tools in your day to day, d rep and constitutional activities.
Can't hear you, Phil. You processing the prompt right now? That's trouble with his microphone. Okay,
I'm undelegating from his d rep right now. I'm kidding, Vikram. You have your hand up. Go ahead.
Fickle fingers. Yeah, I got a hand up, so you know. So you know, like the governance, yeah,
like the governance things, you know. So you know, so I read some papers, you know,
like the governance models, you know. So people are researching about, you know, implementing zk.
You know the ZKP technology for privacy, the protecting the voters' privacy.
You know zero knowledge. So zero knowledge proof for pri. You know the for the privacy of voters.
I mean the. You know you need privacy. You know you don't need to you know expose who you vote.
So you can implement ZKP for your protecting privacy. And if you implement ZKP,
you can see lots of problems like you know. Yeah, fake voters, you know, like double voters,
like C B L attacks. You know, that is the C B L attacks is going to be stronger
and stronger as long you are using A I in governance model. You know, C B L is something like that.
You know, if if you use more A I, you're gonna you're gonna see more strong C B L attack
in the blockchain. So. Yeah, so that's why you know that's why you know the you know the KYC the KYC
the on-chain KYC is the best way to protect civil attacks. ZKP, I mean the KYC Web three. Yeah, yes,
one chain you know wallet address you know like KYC for verification the legitimate voters
and ZKP for protecting the privacy both in the same place privacy and KYC.
I like I like what you're laying down, Vikram. I am not a robot. That is the answer
I was trying to give. I was being rugged by Twitter, but if I was a robot,
I would be way more effective and productive. Well, it means you're you're not under the you're
a self-hating robot. You're not under the control of the robotics laws either,
so you can't harm people. But Mike, Phil is a robot that says he's not a robot.
He must be destroyed. Just kidding, Phil. We love you, but you are going to have to prove it
by shedding blood in public. I'm well. I mean, he could attack someone
and then he's proved he's not right. But Mike, great work, Phil. I was curious about that
that that zk ID thing because was it was it like were we going back to one person one vote
or was it like stake based because if if it was about stake base I don't see the utility of that
since you can already be private in a sense if you don't post metadata yeah
true true true decentralization is only achieved if you do not go for one person one vote
I mean one wallet one vote this is insane I mean you're from India if it's one person one vote
it just becomes the blockchain of India And China. I mean, I I know that it's hard, but you know,
if you think about the you know the community, the wallet holder, if you verify the wallet holder
with the KYC model, that's mean one person, one voter. Okay, but then it's it's China
who gets to decide the future of every single chain. How do you do that without centralizing
the tool? How do you? How do you? Because I hear that all the time, like all the time,
and and every single time there's always a centralized point to the zk, like this device,
this AI is gonna take the decision, this other whatever server out there is gonna make the decision,
like who does it? And if you go with my government does it, then the government
can also be corrupted. So so as long. As long as chain is decentralized, you know,
you are giving votes. How? How? You know? How? Yeah, I mean, I mean, like, you know, your wallet is,
you know, your wallet is based on numbers, right? So if you, if you, you know, conduct the KYC,
so it will change into some Mike, the name. So when you are using your name in your wallet,
that means it's already you are breaching your privacy, right? So that doesn't ZKP just that
doesn't stop me from from from performing a CIBIL attack. Yeah, how can I mean? If you, I mean,
people can go go go to you, so yeah, yeah, you you need to vote me. So
if you do not vote your friend, yeah, if you do not vote your friend, so your friend can see, hey,
you didn't vote me, so I'm not going to talk with you. No, and and so this kind
of things to to is necessary. Like Mike, to what you were saying though,
the zero knowledge proof does require some type of. There needs to be a validator, right? I mean,
you can trust issuer, and so there exactly yes. That that's my point. So
how do you perform that without centralizing the old thing? And then you can go ahead and say, well,
we got this blockchain who does that. But then you you just had to the you you just had to to to
to the computation and the memory. I don't know. What you need to do, right,
if you want to implement this in practice, is for every single government get
their government source of ID, right? So the U.S. It's social security number.
Every government has their own version of this. Then you get all of these, right?
You have zk proofs for every single one of them. When you go to create an account,
you have to provide one of those things. Then you get your account, your KYC,
and no one else can see your social security number. But at the end of the day, okay,
say this happens, right? We put in a massive amount of work. We get this. Now,
not everyone cares about voting on Cardano, right? So it's not going to be every single person
in the world is voting. What's going to happen is someone's going to make a proposal. China
or any country will say, "Hey, wow, we can get a lot of money. Let's go get all our citizens
to go vote for something, right? You get like a billion people in China to vote for something.
" And now one person, it doesn't matter how much 80 you have, how interested you are in the future
of Cardano, just a ton of you make it sound so easy that people. You make it so sound.
You make it sound so easy to get a billion Chinese people to vote the same way on Cardano. Well,
that's the thing. You don't need a billion though. He would do it. You get what I'm saying? Yeah,
CZ would do it, or the Chinese government would do it, or or even just like a random person.
You go around China. I mean, there's not going to be a billion people voting,
so you don't need a billion people. Right now in Cardano, there's like less than a thousand,
like less than a thousand e-reps, right? So to get a thousand people, I mean, if you give me
a hundred thousand dollars, I could get a thousand people to go click some buttons right now,
and and I win. Okay, and and here's a fun question that is meant to be a little bit, you know,
spicy. But just is is Cardano supposed to work for an individual? In China,
the same way it should work for an individual in America, assuming that they have. Spicy question.
I wish bullish dumpling was here. Assuming they have good intentions, right?
Assuming they're an actor of like, hey, I want to collect data. I want a hundred percent.
I want to engage with governance. A hundred percent. But your your your weight on the network
should not just be decided based on the fact that you're you're a person, right?
Not everyone should have the same degree of influence on the network. That's the whole benefit of
of stake weighted. It's okay. The more you're invested in the network,
the more voting power you have. Skinned in the game. The incentive is yeah.
You're not just gonna like rug the whole chain to give yourself money if you're heavily invested in
the chain because you're not getting money. But if you're one person and it doesn't matter
how much AD you have, you just have like a ton of people register who don't care about AD at all,
and they all just vote to send themselves money. And you know we may have already seen that. Yeah,
Phil. So this this is another thing, right? Because this conversation would go on and on.
It's been going on and on for years, and we haven't been able to arrive at a solid,
ideal voting mechan mechanism that will work for us as a community. There are a ton
of voting mechanisms out there. Pluricratik is one of them, as you're talking about, and others,
and they all have their issues, right? So, based on the points that you have said.
Don't you think that the same issue applies? The same issue with centralizing voting to
a specific region based on population for one person, one vote applies to a plutocratic system
where a group of whales, right, or like a cartel of whales, get to decide the direction
of the entire ecosystem to their benefit, right? Because again, these group of people are—I mean,
if they have that much money and that much investment. Are much at stake, right?
It's not going to be to the interest of the the ecosystem at large most of the time.
It's it's going to be to their own interest. Percent, it is it is a centralization of of a type.
But right, we have to look at the existing solutions and weigh the trade-offs. Nothing is perfect.
Okay, the trade-off of this is yes, power is centralized in the people who are heavily invested in
the chain. So the more ADA you hold, the more power you have. The the benefit of this is,
I'm not if I have this much power, right? I'm not gonna vote to shit out my own chain because to get
this much power, I have to have a huge percentage of value in the chain. So
if I have half the ADA on the network, say I have 55 percent of active ADA, I have like
billions of dollars of ADA, right? If I go do some shit that you know hurts the network
for my personal gain and it makes the price of ADA go down by 80 percent.
That's not a good deal for me. I just lost a ton of money, right? If you change this
and we use one person one vote, that dynamic is totally gone. You know,
you have no vested stake in the network, so it doesn't matter what happens to the price of ADA.
If you made like four hundred million dollars, you know, you you lost nothing
because you're not holding ADA. You just dump on the market and you made a ton of money,
and that's the end of it. At least with this, you know, they they can't do that.
They can't just pay themselves ten bill and then go dump it and then, you know, oh I see,
lose their own money. Oh oh I see. So you so you're saying it's better because they're running
a risk. By having a significant amount of stake in ADA in the network, right?
So there's still a risk. There's a huge risk on the end. If something goes wrong, they lose value,
right? So that's the exactly. Yeah. If they if they try to profit, sure they can try to do it,
but they're very limited because the more they try to profit at the expense of the network,
the more the price of ADA goes down, and the more money they lose. Right,
so if you're losing money by trying to profit, that's not something you're going to do, right?
So yeah, you're missing a fundamental. Yeah, yeah, but but how how how about how about sorry,
Shaggy, hold on. So how about the people at the bottom, right? Who still have the same level
of you have a lot of brilliant people with great ideas, with great intentions who want the best
for the chain and the network and whatnot. They have no say, right? They're the little guys
at the bottom that have no say. How how how do you get them to be involved in the direction
of the ecosystem at large? Yeah, I think this is this is something we definitely have to think
about. I think there's ways to do this without one person one vote, right?
Like we can have some type of like credential system of like how much we work you've contributed to
the network, et cetera. We can have some like objective measures of network contributions,
like transaction volume and revenue that you've you've generated on the chain.
We can have like you know. What if somebody's physically attractive? Was that influence? Yeah,
we can have delegation. We can have like pressure CF, et cetera, to delegate to people
that are actually you know meaningful. You know, participants in the ecosystem.
So there's ways we can do this, but basically, saying what what I hear whenever people bring up
one person, one vote is the current voting system has flaws. So we should just replace it,
and then the alternative that they present is something with even more flaws. It's like no,
we can't unless someone gives me. I'm not like I don't think that this is the best thing
in the world. But unless someone gives me something better than stake weighted vote, you know,
we're not doing it, right? We can't just replace it with something that's just going to shit out
our network because a ton of Chinese people get together and and vote. True. True. True.
You keep going. Yeah. Yeah. My point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that, Shaggy. To be honest,
to be honest, I don't even see any other like I don't see any ideal solution that doesn't involve.
Having like a plutocratic system with a layer of other solutions, right?
It has to be integrated with something to mitigate these issues, right?
I don't see a standalone solution in my opinion. Like, hey, so we have contractive voting
and that that would get us there, or or we have plutocratic and that would get us there. You know,
it has to be a combination of probably two mechanisms doing specific things in a specific way.
Could be a combination of both a plutocratic voting mechanism and say contractive voting as well.
In my opinion, I mean that's what I see from from the point you you've just made.
There's a way to cheat that as well. Just saying, quadratic method is absolutely great. You know,
you can calculate the ratio of the, you know, the instead of the stake-based weightage. You know,
it's nonsense. You know, you can, uh, yeah, it's like hijacking. It's like olig oligarch. You know,
it's like mon monarchy system. So I'm saying, you know, the voting it's not for people. You know,
into going to vote for you know changing the proposal. You know, changing some kind
of Network structure or something like that. People are going to vote for electing their delegated,
delegated representative. You know, the DRAF. So DRAF is going to participate in
the network-related, you know, upgrades and other things and that things. You know,
people going to select their DRAF, and that's why every person has the rights to vote.
For selecting their D reps. Yeah, but not by an equal weight. Because if we do it by equal weight,
the president of China is going to say we're going to have a bunch of bribes from their D reps.
I can explain you. I can explain you. So if you have like a one billion dollar invested in
the chain, so everybody is going to work for you, for your money, for your values.
So you don't need to be get a vote, give a vote for electing D rep. So D rep is going to work for
you. Okay, but Vikram, tell me how with one person, one vote. What happened? What?
How do you prevent this? A new president. I mean, someone who's running for president of China.
Okay, but not your D rep. Listen, listen. There's a new person who's running for president of China,
and they say we're gonna we're gonna give every single Chinese citizen like a stimulus check, right?
From the entire Cardano market. Sounds legit. Right. So everyone says, yeah,
I'll vote for this person as the D rep. Everyone goes, they register an account,
they go vote for them as their D rep. Then you know he becomes the D rep with the entire population
of China. And then he proposes the governance action. Let's spend the Cardano treasury to give it
to China, and to use it to pay out stimulus checks for every single Chinese citizen.
And now the entire treasury is empty. And what do you? Every every D rep got the equal rights.
I mean, every D rep can be can have equal rights. So if China one D rep cannot change anything,
and why we need? No, but it's one D rep with with you said one person one vote.
So they had like ten billion voters for them. Phil, that sounds like a huge onboarding event to me.
It doesn't matter if ten billion people voted for one D rep. It doesn't matter. So it's just
how many D reps, okay? So then China says, okay, every single Chinese citizen,
you are now registering as a D rep, and if you do this, you'll get a stimulus check, right?
You'll just get ten thousand dollars mailed to you, and then they all do this,
and then they all submit a proposal to send ten thousand dollars to the treasury
to every Chinese D rep. And now, this one person, one vote does not. We're painting with
broad brushes, though. What's part of this topic? You know, it's like we we have to have
that there is certain basic qualities that are going to pull us towards this blockchain.
If one billion people live in China or you know India, so they they can you know they can select
two D reps, maximum two D reps. All right, Bikram. I'm so sorry to cut you off, buddy.
You're you've been great. We just have so many hands. I apologize, guys.
I don't see who raised their hand first, but honor system. Yeah, definitely going to let Mike go,
and then I'm punching. Yeah, no. Honestly, I'm 100% with with tilt. But if we sum it down,
if we sum it down to just one phrase, whoever whoever holds the control of the IDs controls
the votes. So what he's saying about China is pretty much that, for example,
my government controls my my my my my social insurance number. That's what they do. But yeah,
I mean, like yeah. So it it just comes down to that. But again, you have a central point.
So China government of China, if they want the money, if they want the power,
they can just make it work their way. And that's why I believe that system is not quite yet.
The one that we should use, but yeah, yeah. Elon Musk, he's got everybody's ID in United States.
He can just do whatever he wants on the blockchain, right? Yeah, the government controls it. I mean,
like, I'm not saying it's gonna happen. What I'm saying is that I don't want it to be
possible to happen. Wow. Who is next, guys? Hands. Yeah, I've heard Gold Brush actually speak about
the idea that. Voting power be derived from transaction volume. I've heard a few other people
bring this up. I think that that is a more reasonable thing if we're looking to make sure
that the treasury is never empty, because there are plenty of people who can have plenty of bags
in Cardano and not at all contribute to the treasury. Because, as we all know,
if you've been here for any amount of time, there's a lot of wallets that are huge
and don't do any like any transactions. They just sit there and earn stakes. So, you know,
there is a fundamental problem I have with that. But now, only because you threw my name in here,
I want to say that that would give Dexes all the power, right? Depends, I guess,
upon whether or not you're willing to implement some form of blacklisting. Right?
You're starting to see the slippery slope here, right? And I and I love that term, slippery slope.
But I wanted to move to the other fundamental problem I had with something that was said.
And that is to Phil's point. If an institution comes in with billions of dollars to buy Cardano,
I can guarantee you they have billions of dollars to lose. And there may indeed be situations
where it's in their best interest to tank the price of Cardano because there are incentives for them
in losing investments. Oh my gosh! Oh goodness! Yeah, we have perpetuals now, baby. We can short it.
We can tank the game when it comes to VCs and any sort of like. Private equity firm, like bro,
this is what they do. You know, this is one of the reasons why banks being involved is dangerous.
If if someone buys fifty one percent of the circulating supply of Cardano,
and then they tank the price of Cardano, they are going to lose billions. So yeah, what
if they have fifty billion? Sure, they might. What if they had a big short on? Baby,
that's what I'm saying. They'd have to short it by more. They'd have to short it by more
than they lose, right? Okay, so say they buy fifty. No, no, I'm not suggesting
they don't lose anything, Phil. I'm suggesting that the way that taxes are set up for them.
It's incentivized for them to lose on some of their investments, so they can get
a negative capital gains tax. Absolutely, twenty billion dollars. They're in twenty billion dollars
in the red. And this has happened though. This has happened though with stuff
like airline companies. You look at what they do. So, I mean, like I get it,
but if you understand the economics behind it, it's not a safe bet to assume that no big institution
with billions to throw at Cardano would not also have billions to lose on that. Yeah,
but it's a safe bet to say that it's a deterrent, right? I'm not saying it'll prevent it
permanently, but we can say that the likelihood of doing it is way lower than
in a one-person-one-vote system or anything else, because they have to explain to
their shareholders, "We're just going to go brick out twenty billion dollars, and we're going to be
twenty billion in the red just for a tax, just to get our tax situation like situated." It's like,
okay, yeah, it could happen, but and we chose a member. Yeah, this is not something your investors
are going to be happy about. You guys, we have a member of the. Cardano Atlantic Council,
which is a consortium representative of the constitutional committee. Her name is Jenny Brado,
or as I like to refer to her, Queen. Hello, Jenny. Happy Epoch's end. Welcome. Glad you made it.
Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah, perfect. Can you hear me? Hi, Jenny. Okay. Hi, Jenny.
What's up? Hey. Hey, what's up? Um. So yeah, just want to say happy ebox end.
Saw the space going still, and I hope you had an amazing epoch, and you have an even better one yet
to come. Did you mint any blocks, Ben? Weed Stake Pool. That's ticker W E E D. We we minted
four blocks, and it's just an abundance of good fortune and positivity and love,
and just limitless potential. But yes, thank you, Jenny. It was a great epoch.
I hope I hope yours was good as well. Four blocks, man. You're like on a roll, huh? I love that.
Just living the dream. Like things are back to where they need to be. We we spoke about it briefly,
but I'll just say it for everyone here in the space too. It it this was an epoch of recognition
for me of that mangy, stinky, flea-ridden, shit-stained, wild animal that many would see it
on the street and think that should be in the pound. That that animal should be locked in a cage.
But that's Hosky, and you know he just came and lifted his leg and pissed on the weed plant that is
the Cardano weed node, and just gave us this beautiful flourishing of new vitality.
So thank you to the Hosky community. And I'm so glad that happened. Yeah, you deserve it, bro.
What a stroke of good fortune it was. I mean, yeah. Oh, it's deserved.
420K to to almost three million. So it's it's wow. Is that what you're sitting at right now?
Almost three million. Totally. That's pretty cool. Yeah, incredible. That's a good number. Well,
I'm glad to hear that. I mean, it's okay. That washes right off, man. Hi, Kiwi. Well, that was it.
I just wanted to say Happy Epoch's End and much love to everybody, and nice to see you all here.
That's Jenny's way of saying "fuck you all." You guys all suck. I hate you. I'm just kidding.
I'm joking. We love you, Jenny. Thank you for saying hello. And actually, all jokes aside,
we are going to wind down the space. But thank you all for joining today, listening in, speaking.
Great space. We will be back doing it again on Saturday. That'll be the next Epoch's End.
I hope we can all just let the words of Wonder Woman guide us, and just really choose to believe in
love, and let that be the wind in our sails. This epoch, and I'll try to live it too.
It's it's it's easier said than done, but let's let that guide us. If if anybody else has, yeah,
please go ahead. Yeah, may I? Because I've been waiting a while for this one.
People talking about some great concepts, and the reality of the fact with the institutes is,
and I'm not sure somebody's open micing again. Um. Somebody said about the institutes,
and and like I absolutely agree. We have companies like BlackRock now starting to buy in,
and they're going to buy until they can't buy anymore, literally because there's none left.
Because retail and other companies, and them will be holding it all. If you guys don't understand
how this works, yeah. If you guys don't understand how this works by now, they buy in, buy in,
buy in until they've got enough of a share that they can start playing with the price,
doing what they want, dumping the price back so that their friends can all buy in,
and then when they've all got enough of a controlling share, they start colluding to get what
they want. Now, it's not about one person having control here. It's about a bunch of institutes
that will have control of our chain if we don't find a way around it. Now,
I have been saying for ages, I found a way past this. It takes. Yeah, I'll simplify it out. Okay.
Now, I thought of this because I'm trying to build a digital identity. Now, I need money for that.
I'll get there, whatever. That's that's fine. It doesn't matter whether it's me
or somebody else that implements something like this. An ID that is on chain that has one person
behind it, and you can verify that one person. And I found a way to do that without linking
that ID to somebody. Now, once you've done that, you can then have any voters or D reps
and anyone else using one wallet. That means you've got one wallet, one vote. Yeah, sure,
not one vote. But then you stagger the voting so that there are caps in place.
Now that means that anyone with substantial weight is still going to feel
like they're getting valued because they still have substantially more votes than the average person
or even the average company. But they are going to be capped at a point where they cannot tilt
the scales of the entire chain. Now it's better than quadratic voting because quadratic voting
that can be split across multiple wallets means nothing to anybody. You could use
quadratic voting with the same system and have a single wallet locked to that quadratic vote. Now,
yes, it means that people have got to consolidate their ADA to that one wallet to do the voting,
blah blah blah. But you know what? Tough fucking bickies. We need to find a way to make this work
and make it work well. And something like this is the only way you're going to get that, guys.
Beautiful. Well said. And let's keep let's keep the juices flowing. Another callback to earlier
in the space. That's a great idea. Let's keep the juices flowing, Bikram.
We're going to wind down the space today, but I'm already looking forward to talking to you again
in five days, my friend. Five days. Five. I just want to say this: the stuff
we've been talking about here today is the stuff, like proof of stake, specifically.
Like these are the flaws of proof of stake, and and that's why some Bitcoiners are going to be
really reluctant to bring their Bitcoin over to a proof of stake chain
because they realize BlackRock and these others, they could, they can, they have the the willpower
and the strength to like sling this chain around and do whatever they want with when they want to.
I'll never forget a hater saying that to me, and it stopped me in my tracks.
This person was a hater of blockchain. They were they were being a hater, but they just said, "Hey,
look, even if you're right and Cardano's incredible, they're just gonna buy it up.
If it's worth anything, they'll just buy it all up and take it over, and then it'll get absorbed.
" And I was like, "Fuck." But if I may, that's why we're pushing power to the edges, right? Is
because human beings are not so easy to influence as I think it's sometimes tempting to like, "Oh,
you just do this and this, and then you get all these people to do." I mean,
I get I get if you incentivize people with money, it definitely boosts the amount of people
who want to do said activity. But if we can get people from all around the world
who genuinely are buying into the ethos as well as the technology, I mean,
I know if it's not on chain, it's basically, you know, it's like window dressing.
But at the same time, these things mean something. The Cardonal Constitution means something.
These things are all just kind of encapsulations of a shared, what should be a shared
global ethos about what will make this blockchain sustainable. But it's in that phrase,
pushing power to the edges, man, and it's not as clean and as simple on a personal level,
on a Global level, all these things. There's there's so much nuance to it.
And thank you for coming to my TED talk, guys. Got to run for now, but have a great epoch.
There's a couple people requesting to speak right now. I'm sorry. We'll we'll do it again
in five days. I hope everybody can come back. Yeah, you have to come every week. Not happy epoch.
It's not a week, Vikram. Yeah, sometimes twice a week. Don't use that dirty dirty word here.
Happy epochs end, guys. It's been great. All right, guys. Bye, Phil. Thanks for the input.
Great conversation epochs. Nice to. Yonkiri King. Thank you, sir. Thank,
thank you everybody for contributing. Everybody who, everyone go give Phil a follow.
He's one of the developers that we have from Africa. Africa gets we, you know,
we use Africa a lot about Cardano Africa, but he's one of the actual guys building an app.
So he he didn't get rubbed by the African invasion of Charles Kingston. And if you did not help,
if you're wondering where you can, if you're wondering where you can find Phil, uh, in Vegas,
he'll be at the CVS. Please take a picture with him if you run into him.
Don't don't don't be douche. Got to go, guys.
Have a great EPOC. Do it again, too. Bye. Bye for now. Yeah. Thank you.
