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PKT Roundtable Discussion
Recorded: May 22, 2024 Duration: 1:26:03Space Recording
Full Transcription
The End Thank you. Music Thank you. . Thank you. . Thank you. Music Thank you. Hey, what was that music?
How did you, are you just playing it
no it's part it's in the app uh you can uh down at the bottom you see it says request
mute everyone in music you can put music on to start things off that's actually good music now
okay yeah you didn't like you like this you like the nostalgic uh? Yeah, much better than that.
Yeah, for sure.
Well, thank you, Kurt, for setting this up.
Thanks for everybody for joining.
Welcome to the Packet Roundtable discussion.
Kurt's going to be our host for today, so I'm going to let Kurt kick things off.
So I'm going to let Kurt kick things off.
Hello, everybody.
While I'm trying to send some DMs and everything, I will get the space started.
Every week, PKT does a roundtable discussion.
We'll take a topic, invite some guests, and have a nice discussion.
This week's topic is why does privacy matter in 2024?
What's the deal? Is it really that big of a deal? Do we really need it? Um, if you're following the law, is it, are you just
fine without, with, you know, without it? So that's the discussion for today. Hopefully, uh,
ruffle some feathers and get some, you know, lively discussion going.
Before we get started with the discussion, we will introduce PKT.
We'll introduce the guests that have shown up and hopefully the ones that are scheduled to come, come and they can introduce themselves when they get here.
And yeah, we'll get started.
My name is Kurt Ivey, marketing manager and on and off network steward for PKT.
And I've been working Web3 since 2019.
And yeah, really love the PKT community and glad to be here.
PKT, would you like to give a short introduction?
Yeah, sure.
We are PKT or Packet Cache.
We're a decentralized physical infrastructure
deep end ecosystem that supports open internet access
and we are powering the decentralized web.
Our goal is to provide a,
or to create a sovereign internet over internet overlay where people have censorship
resistant access to the internet. And we're building out this infrastructure through
currently blockchain mining, hosting CJ DNS nodes, VPN exits, and people are and we're working on getting the next utility, which is allowing people to host
websites in the decentralized web and be able to use your URL as a payment address.
So that's pretty much the main focus right now for Packet Cash and the decentralized
internet infrastructure space.
We're really happy that everybody was able to join today.
Really excited that Unstoppable Domains are here.
DeFi Tycoon, Blockchain Buds, Brickin, EOSI Finance AI, amongst all the other amazing people.
Caleb James Delisle, who is the lead dev for Packet Cash.
He also is the creator of CJDNS.
And we got Jesse Berger from the Rowdy Squad
and Josh Berger as well.
And yeah, thank you everybody for being here today.
And I'm excited for this topic.
At least on stage right now, we have blockchain buds.
Would you like to introduce yourself?
Sure, I'm Block.
Just a marketer in the space.
I've been in the space for a few years now,
growing the account and trying to network with as many individuals as possible,
companies, stuff like that.
So just working on marketing and stuff right now.
But basically learning about blockchain has kind of changed my life.
And yeah, we're getting rich, which is crazy.
It's absolutely insane.
I thought I'd be using my degree, but no.
We're just playing with meme coins right now.
But yeah, that's me. I'm Block.
Thanks for that.
We lost one. We'll see if he comes back up.
Oh yeah, that's cool.
What made you want to join the PKT space today?
Someone DMed me. It might have been you. I don't know.
But someone DMed me and said that we were having a discussion.
I like to, well, actually, I'm probably going to be the dumbest person in the room.
But I like to do that because I can learn a lot more and I can ask questions and stuff like that.
And hopefully the audience, I'll ask some questions that the audience
will have and they'll benefit from
my stupidity. Thanks.
And then we have EOS Finance.
No problem.
I'm sure you have some good insights for us, man.
EOS Finance
EOS Finance is back on the stage.
is back on the stage. How are you doing?
How are you doing?
Would you like to interest yourself?
Would you like to introduce yourself?
EOS, would you like to introduce yourself?
You might be muted.
Yeah. Okay. While we're waiting for other speakers to join, hopefully they get here. Everyone was fighting to get on the list this week.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
topic, let's start off with PKT addressing the problem here. It's something that PKT has
discussed a lot and it's really central to their ethos and platform. So when we're talking about
privacy, digital privacy, of course, in 2024, why is it even important? Like,
can we do without it? are we really exposed to anything negative
by losing our privacy um let's start with pkt and then go to caleb
i think it would actually be best for caleb just to jump right into the right into it because you
know he is he is the privacy guy yeah caleb do you want to you want to jump in and just kind of tackle this one?
I'm going to say something that's probably a really unique take on this topic.
I was thinking about this today or yesterday.
I mean, the way the world works, we people on this call,
and maybe there's somebody here who's powerful, but for the most part, we're all like the modern equivalent of plebs, right?
You know, we're regular people.
We don't have like influence, like to shift global policy.
We don't have, we don't, we don't have that. We come from the right fathoms.'t have, we don't have,
we come from the right fountains, you know,
we don't have that, what some people have.
And so there's really only one tool
that we have in our toolbox as regular people
to gain the upper hand or even to have any hand.
And that is the ability to create systems to create
like, so for example, if, if the, if the plebs like us or like Satoshi, for instance, create
something that is a, um, like a prisoner's dilemma for the global elite,
then that is a way that ordinary people can have power.
By creating something that plays one faction off against another,
we can actually influence the course of events.
So why is privacy important?
Is it important for me or for you?
Well, no.
I mean, they've got back doors in our computers. They've got backdoors. They can put microphones. Like there's no way that any one of let's not even talk about privacy per se but let's say if we're able to create technology that changes the the the list of things that a person can do
then that can actually influence the course of history because, I mean, perfect example is Bitcoin.
You know, like the reason why it works is because you've got all these rich people standing around all telling you,
and all of them will be ruined when Bitcoin takes over.
But, and they're all telling each other, oh no, we're not going to buy that.
But behind the backs, they're buying it because nobody wants to be the last one off the bus.
They're buying it because nobody wants to be the last one off the bus.
So if we can think about the use of the strategic use of things like privacy technology, you know, like Monero for, and I know Monero gets a lot of attention because people don't like it.
It's private money.
You know, same with tornado cash.
You know, really upsets a lot of people.
But what we can see, because Tornado Cash upset people so badly, and the wallet, what's it called?
Samurai Wallet.
It upset people so badly that they went after the developers.
We can see that it's having an impact.
It's doing something.
Somebody, somehow it strikes a nerve.
You know, it's kind of like when Warren Buffett said that Bitcoin is like rat poison.
He got so angry, you know, so angry at the idea of Bitcoin.
Like you couldn't even get that guy that angry about like child trafficking. But
when it comes to Bitcoin, he got like, you could see it in his eyes that this was something that
was striking a nerve very deep in him. And the same thing kind of comes up when you look at like
tornado cash or, or samurai wallet, like this, this is really, really bothering some people.
And they can't even manage to go after the people
that are using Samurai Wallet or Tornado Cash.
They didn't go after a single one of them.
They went after the developer.
And that just illustrates that these technologies
are able to have political influence by playing powerful people off against each other.
And we know that it's playing powerful people against each other, because if it was powerful
people playing against weak people, the powerful people would have just gone and hunted down the
people, the weak people that were using it. But instead, they couldn't go after those people.
it. But instead, they couldn't go after those people. They had to go after the developers. So
I think that privacy is probably only one part of the answer. But I think probably the most
telling thing that speaks in favor of privacy technology is the fact that so many powerful
people get so angry about it. Same as Bitcoin, same as Warren Buffet.
They get angry because it works.
I also think that most people will trade their privacy for convenience.
And if you talk to most people, they'll say, oh yeah, privacy is so important.
It's the most important thing.
I'm a private person, blah, blah, blah.
And then you say, do you use a VPN when you get online?
They're like, oh no, it slows down my internet connection.
You're like, okay, well, so then privacy isn't the most important thing.
You know, convenience is.
And we trade that day in and day out. I mean, even being on X right now,
you know, you used your email to get an account to, um, to connect. So there's this trade-off
that has to happen about privacy and convenience. And I think as we continue to grow and make privacy more convenient and easier to use, then it'll get more adoption, even with Bitcoin and crypto as a whole.
We've come a long way.
I got into this space in 2017.
And what's happened since 2017 to now is just just you know incredible growth and development
we still have a long way to go but I think a lot of people will start adopting
more privacy and be able to you know take control of their own lives and their
own technology as we make it more convenient to use.
I actually have been interested in the conversation around, oh, I'm sorry, actually, we have Sandy from Unstoppable Domains here. Sandy, hello, thank you for joining.
Yeah, GM, GM, GM. Sorry about that.
Oh, no problem. I don't know how I sent the wrong link. There's,
I think that actually the old link, when Twitter switched to X, the old link broke or something
like that. But thanks for joining. Would you like to introduce yourself and your project and,
you know, Unstoppable? Yeah. My name is Sandy Carter. I am the COO of Unstoppable Domains and the founder of a group called
Unstoppable Women of Web3 and AI. Unstoppable Domains is a digital identity platform where you
own all the information about yourself. So the domain acts as your digital identity and you can
exchange crypto, you can message in an encrypted fashion through it, you can
display your collectibles and badges.
So there's a ton of interesting things that you can do with the platform itself.
Our two most popular use cases are resolving crypto addresses.
resolving crypto addresses. So using like sandy.nft or .metropolis to resolve your 21
characters and numbers of your crypto wallet. That's our number one. We do 30 million
resolutions every week with that. So someone buying crypto, sending crypto, receiving crypto,
or maybe buying a meme coin or an nft that's number one our number two
must use use case is our encrypted group chats and so based on a badge that a company or a user
creates then you can have an encrypted chat with just a set of people. And that's like a group chat. So you can really have those micro
communities that everybody's talking about now, today. And the way that you acquire your digital
identities, you just go to unstoppable domains.com. And you select your digital identity, you can set
up a profile, it's kind of like a, I would say a LinkedIn, a web three LinkedIn version.
You have discoverability of all your activities. You've got a reputation on there. You can link to
an avatar. You've got social, you've got messaging. Everything's included in that one profile.
So that's kind of a brief overview of the platform itself and what we provide.
Nice. I just, I actually didn't know there was so much to it, but there was just domains.
I mean, would you mind telling us a little bit about the other project? I work with almost all women actually. So when I first started, we did tons of articles
about like women in crypto and stuff. So something I'm pretty invested in.
The second project that I founded was Unstoppable Women of Web3 and AI.
I started that about three years ago when I came into the space. I used to work
for Amazon Web Services. I was one of their senior executives there running enterprise workload and
regulated industries. And when I came over to the Web3 space, I noticed pretty quickly that
a lot of the meetings, there were only men at the meetings.
Not that that's a bad thing, but diversity always, I think, is better.
Diversity of thought, diversity of culture, diversity of race, diversity of gender.
And so I started asking different women, why aren't they looking at the Web3 space?
Or why aren't they even looking at AI?
And most of the answers were we really don't
understand it and so you know that google survey really comes to life where a woman will apply to
a job if there's 10 criteria she'll apply she has all 10. a man will look at the 10.
Hey, so sorry, somebody muted everybody.
Okay.
Where did I end off?
Where should I start again?
It was just about, you were saying a man will look at those 10 questions.
Okay, they'll look at the 10 questions and they'll apply if they meet four.
Women typically will look at them and only apply if they meet all 10.
And so I felt like the missing secret sauce was education.
And so I started a group.
I was hoping to get companies involved because there are so many really cool groups that
are individual based, like the Boys Club or Women of Blockchain.
And so I started a group where companies can help us educate the next generation. So I have 210
companies that have joined. Our focus is really on education. So we have free education on
what is blockchain? What's the metaverse? what's a digital identity, what's Web3.
We have 55,000 members, and they also requested education on AI with the convergence of AI and blockchain.
So we added in some AI classes as well.
We do in-person sessions, so we'll have one coming up at Consensus.
If you don't mind, maybe I'll pin that invitation to the very top as well. And, and then we also publish every year we publish the top most top 100 most inspirational women, and the top 50 most inspirational girls. And we do that because if you can see it, you can be it. So when you see these inspirational women, more women want to join in.
And I started with the girls because I did a session at, let's see, I think I was at
NFT Miami.
And they asked me to speak to a group of 20 girls.
And we did like a little education session.
One of those girls who was eight years old asked me for the material on how to write
a smart contract. And then she started her the material on how to write a smart contract.
And then she started her own class on how to write a smart contract.
So we then added in top 50 most inspirational girls.
We do that every October.
So that's just a little bit about the project.
I'm really excited about it because I believe that diversity of everything makes your projects better.
It's been proven out in studies, you have higher
return on investment, better market fit. And you know, we all want web three to be the very best
that it can be. Yeah, a lot of the writing I was doing centered around those studies around,
you know, businesses with more women on board tended to do better in the long run. So it was kind of a no-brainer.
So I would like to jump back into the conversation before I forget my question.
I want to go back to TornadoCache real quick
because I think that's a very central concept,
I suppose, to this privacy question.
And there is posts going around the internet about, you know,
should we be mad at the developer for creating that?
And I just wanted to see really quick everyone's thoughts on that.
Can you get someone in trouble for creating something that,
writing some code, I suppose,
that has some damaging effect on society
that doesn't necessarily attack anyone's computers.
You know, this is a privacy software at the end of the day,
and it can be used for negative purposes.
Like, how would you regulate something like that in society?
Like, obviously, you can't even regulate it on the federal level, legally.
As a society, how should we treat people like that?
What's the procedure?
I'm just going to say, if a guy writes some code and then the government locks him up
and then people are saying it's his fault, they're fucking bootlickers.
It's just, that's it.
Josh? and then people are saying like it's his fault they're fucking bootlickers it's just that's it so i mean look you can get in trouble for anything at any time it just depends on who you get in
trouble with and um you know i mean the the challenge is that you U.S. government likes to grandstand and go after people to make a point.
And so it depends on where you're defending yourself.
But, yeah, I mean, look, a lot of things have been illegal and we're just illegal because people don't understand.
we're just illegal because people don't understand.
So I think if you're going to go make things that are disruptive,
you've got to include education on why it's important,
why it's fundamental to society.
And if you can make a good enough point for why society needs that
and get enough people to adopt it,
then you have a fighting chance of having it become part of society.
then you have a fighting chance of having it become part of society.
Yeah, but I mean more like, as a society, should we be mad at him?
I mean, did he do anything wrong?
Do you guys think that that's one of the reasons why Satoshi did what he did. Like after he created Bitcoin, he just
dipped and he stayed anonymous the entire time. And I don't know, there's some theories say
Satoshi's dead and all that kind of stuff, which could very much be true. Like, like what you were
saying earlier, Kurt, about whoever it was, Rockefeller warren buffett or whoever was super upset that we're
disrupting we uh that crypto is disrupting the uh the the norm the normal financial instruments
and stuff like that um tornado cash uh like really anything like blockchain related is gonna disrupt
everything that they've kind of built.
And the way the way they've built it is basically so that we can kind of, you know, like stay under their thumb in a way, like in a lot of ways.
The banks and it's just it's just not good for business, like for for us as a society.
So when we do build things, yeah, yeah, of course it's not like,
I don't think it's our fault. Like we're trying to do what's right for us as, as like humans,
right. But they're trying to do what's right for them as, um, like people in control of humanity,
which I don't really, I don't really think that that should be a thing, but you know,
the governments think that that should be a thing, but the governments think that that should be a
thing. Everybody in power thinks that that should be a thing. Everybody with real money, billions of
dollars, think that that should be a thing. So I don't know. I don't think that we're doing
anything wrong. I don't think that the people who create these protocols are doing anything wrong.
I think this is like the natural evolution of humanity.
Like, oh, well, we're going to do this.
We're going to, okay, we created cash.
You know, we created cash.
Then we're going to create credit cards.
Oh, that's just the natural progression of, you know, financial instruments.
And now blockchain is just, it's a natural evolution,
a natural progression of financial instruments.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
We don't have to, I don't have to like, I can just look and see if into your wallet, I don't have to have
a specific account or whatever. So yeah, dude, I think, I think it's just natural progression and
I don't think it's anything wrong, but obviously if you're on the other side of things and you,
you want to, you know, hold people, I guess, hold people down in a way, then you're going to feel like they're
doing something wrong just because, but they're not though. You know what I mean?
Well, hold people down, I think is really significant because, and here, I'm going to
say it. My opinion, the powers that be, the top level, whatever, whoever that is, they're just a bunch of people that are good at literally one thing, and that is destroying anything they don't have control over.
They'll just go out of their way to undermine, control, destroy anything they cannot get their hands into.
And so they hate things that upset their little juggernaut. I mean, if Satoshi didn't do what he did anonymously,
certainly he would either be dead or in federal prison.
There's no way around that.
It's certain.
I mean, back at that time when Bitcoin was first created,
I mean, before Bitcoin, and I say this,
I feel like I say this every call,
before Bitcoin was Liberty Reserve, that guy went to jail. There Bitcoin was Liberty Reserve, that guy went to jail.
There was like Eagle, that guy went to jail.
You know, it's obvious that Satoshi would have done what he did with the most strict anonymity
because if he didn't, he would have been shut down instantly.
Yeah, I think part of the tornado cash issue and whether or not it's good for crypto or
society is another question, but creating leaks in the financial system where we can
find ways to re-divert and remove, I guess, some value from their system. I think they see that and they
understand where it can go. And they immediately, they don't like that.
Well, playing the powers that be against each other, because they're not all unified.
And you suddenly, you have one little clique or group of people in the power structure,
whatever that is,
and they're using Tornado Cash to clean up their money.
And the other ones are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You're supposed to use Swiss banks so that we get some of our loot out of it.
And all of a sudden they're like, hey, we have to shut this thing down.
Now, I mean, they shut down the website and they made an example out of the guy,
but it doesn't mean like the contract's still there.
And as far as I know, it still functions.
So I'm not sure how effective that was anyway.
It just made an example.
I mean, making an example is rather effective, isn't it?
All it takes is one, you know,
one news story to change the course of the market in a lot of ways.
Well, it's effective at potentially preventing other people from doing it in the future.
But then, I mean, Tornado Cash is already out there.
And now what?
Are they going to try and prevent any of the tornado cash coins from being used.
That's miserable.
You know, yeah, I guess it sort of trims down a bit, the number of privacy solutions.
You know, Local Monero just went out of business like what?
A week or two weeks ago, they decided to shut down because the heat was too strong.
But now everybody's using this other thing. I don't know. It's an app. what a week or two weeks ago they decided to shut down because the heat was too too strong but now
everybody's using this other thing uh i don't know it's called it's an app uh instead of the local
monero which is a website so i mean it's arguable this thing just puts like when they put pressure
it just like does evolution you know like the the stronger the stronger services survive and the weaker ones get knocked out.
So, you know, that's not necessarily even a problem.
Yeah, it's like the theory that spiders are getting more dangerous and sneaky
because we're getting the ones that stand out and the ones that don't stand out
are the ones that survive.
Personally, it's a tough decision, but I think Tornado Cash in particular, I don't really
think we need that.
And I don't think people should be making it.
But it's just hard to say what you even do about it.
I think this is the purpose of decentralization though is whether
things are more distributed
or more decentralized makes it so that it's harder
to shut them down. I mean, that's really why
Bitcoin is not
getting shut down because who's going to shut it down
and how are you going to shut it down and who are you going to sue
and which door are you going to kick in as the SEC?
It's like there's no there.
There's no one home.
There's no address to send a letter to.
And so that's the power of many people working together to create decentralization
and a large enough group of people sharing the similar ideals.
I think that that's also what's so important about what Sandy is doing with education
because the truth is people don't know anything about this stuff.
People are just starting to figure this out,
and you have our government and the people that are making these laws.
These guys were here when the stock
market was invented. I mean, like, guys are dinosaurs. And they're the ones that are making
laws and making decisions. And they're sitting in the House and the Senate for 100 year terms.
And they don't know anything about blockchain. So how are you going to regulate something that
you don't even know anything about? You don't even own a crypto wallet. You don't even know what your private
keys are. You don't know anything. And so now you're the guy that's regulating this industry
and you barely even know how to use your iPhone. And I think that's the biggest problem with
society today. I got a question. Has anybody heard of the new documentary that just came out called
Ashley Madison? And if you aren't familiar with what Ashley Madison is, in the early
2000, or I guess it was like 2015, Ashley Madison was a dating website for people to basically cheat on their,
you know, their spouse, uh, discreetly and hackers hacked the platform and released 70 million,
um, uh, the debt, the data for 70 million users. And I mean, everyone from Hunter Biden to like Snooki's husband from the Jersey Shore were on this data breach.
And it was like the largest data breach in the history of, you know, the Internet.
I mean, since the beginning of time and nobody got arrested for it.
Uh, and nobody got arrested for it.
Um, it's pretty, what's that?
It's pretty.
You're going to register on a cheating website.
You should enter that your name is Gary Gensler.
Yeah, I know.
That's the funny thing is that these people, and it's crazy to me, I'm watching this documentary
and these people are using their real name, their real birthday, their real addresses
there.
And when you, when you sign up, you put in all your different fantasies
and you upload photos. And these people are actually uploading all this data to this website
because on the website, this little cheaply thing says 100% secure, SSL trusted, your data is 100%
secure. And they even say in the doc that like, they never did anything to secure the data.
And anybody could just come in and hack it.
And they knew it.
And they even provided a service
where if you deleted your account,
they would delete all your data.
And they never did.
So they were just charging people.
It's pretty remarkable that anyone ever signed up for it.
But the fact that 40 million people got their data leaked and there was not one person that went to jail for it.
And the company still exists today.
2015 was wild.
Yeah, they're making $250,000 a day off this website.
It was pretty mind-blowing.
CryptoXL, you have a comment?
Yeah, I just wanted to point something out that's probably pretty important to remember here.
And I put it in a purple pill.
One of the key aspects of money is fungibility. And fungibility is
something that desperately requires privacy. If you're not able to transact with another peer
in a seamless way that isn't inspected by a centralized agency, like dollars, or like many
other forms of transaction that we've had throughout the centuries,
then we lose one aspect, one key aspect of money itself.
Because any transaction can then be censored.
And that's what we have a problem with right now
when it comes to things like stable coins, for instance.
Like USDT, and I'm not a big TetherFUD guy
because I've been through many iterations of Tether FUD.
But one thing to remember, and Arthur Hayes pointed this out,
is that Tether gets all of its capability to back itself
through commercial paper, through Kenneth Fitzgerald
and the master bank that they're connected to.
So with a wave of a pen, Janet Yellen or whoever is the treasurer
could literally unbank Tether.
They're likely not to do that, but if they did do that,
it wouldn't hurt them terribly.
And as someone pointed out earlier that, you know, it's important,
they want to implement controls that affect the health of their financial system.
And being that Tether and the entire crypto space is starting to really grow,
probably in this cycle, maybe it goes to, I don't know, $5 trillion or between $3 and $5 trillion,
that starts to become a little bit of a risk for them.
So I absolutely believe that they will start implementing controls there and
censoring transactions, which is going to call into question whether or not stablecoins are a
very usable form of pay-to-peer transaction because they can't be censored. However, technologies that
implement piracy or let's say pay-to-peer transactions in a seamless way in a
decentralized way those are always going to be superior to say a CVDC or any kind
of centrally controlled non censorship resistant money so what kind of money do
you want do you want hard money or do you want money that can be controlled by a few and very high positions?
Of course, I mean, we definitely don't want a CBDC.
I want to sort of backtrack a little bit to an interesting segue where we're talking about privacy and data.
It doesn't have to be just about the government. The Ashley Madison comment brought up another
good point. It's more about protecting users' data from hackers or any sort of exploitation.
So I want to give that question to PKT and then to Sandy. How is PKT, for people
who don't know, how is PKT protecting user data? And then how is unstoppable domains protecting
user data? Caleb, do you want to jump in on this one?
Caleb, do you want to jump in on this one?
Privacy.
Do we do that?
Packet is based on Bitcoin.
So there's no privacy in the financial side because we're too old.
We're old school.
We don't use Monero.
But on the data side, obviously encrypt anything you don't need
to uh and you know it's need to know you don't need to show the data you don't you don't show it
but i mean that that stuff's a little bit boring at this point it's like everybody kind of encrypts
everything by now if you're not encrypting stuff then uh you're you're pretty pretty much like you're back in 2004, I think.
But yeah, so we're doing VPNs.
VPNs are obviously pretty pro-freedom because with a VPN,
your real IP address, aka your internet service provider,
aka your identity, can be masked by routing through routing through the vpn so that's definitely
pretty important but uh i would say that fundamentally what we're trying to do is more
about robustness than uh privacy because uh so the robustness where that the idea is that you know
you put up a website in cdns network and uh it's hard to take that site down because, well, you don't necessarily know where it's hosted.
That's need to know.
You don't need to know.
And, you know, you can't just call up the hosting provider because, well, that's need to know and you don't need to know.
Well, that's need to know and you don't need to know.
I actually, I'm really interested in what unstoppable is doing with domains because we actually
have a need for domains.
So maybe we can segue this into a little side discussion about making unstoppable domains
available for people that haven't installed anything like just have a
regular vanilla computer you also asked me how to what do we do so at unstoppable we believe that
your data is yours so you control what you sell we don't sell your personal data. We don't even own your own personal data.
When someone gets an unstoppable domain, they add data to their domain.
They decide what they want to add, what they want to share.
They allow an app to gain access or not.
So when you log in with Sandy.Crypto, for example, to a Dapp or to a game or to a metaverse, it will say,
this is the information this app wants. Do you want to share that or not?
Right now, there are three primary sources of data for your digital identity. There's data that you
add, like your profile data. There's data on the public blockchain, and then there is other
metadata like engagement from your mobile app or from your API.
And then data can also be added from partners that you choose to share that data with.
So let's say that you were logging into a ticketing system with Sandy.Crypto, that
particular company could say, say hey we want to add
your proof of attendance for attending the nfl super bowl for example and so we actually just
published a blog post that goes through where all of your data lives most of it lives on chain there
are a few things that live off chain like a a badge. If someone gives you a badge for an
in real life event, that data lives off chain, not on chain. And we've kind of walked through
how that smart contract creates the record of your ownership on the public blockchain,
both with your domain as well as with your crypto address. But once the data is on chain,
then that is now taken forward
with the chain security as well,
if that makes sense.
For example, Bandit is an nft aggregator
if it requests data from the user and let's say the the domain or the digital identity and the
wallet is required the user decides do i want to share that information or not if they don't
they can say no i don't either the application would then say, okay, well, you can't enter, or it'll say you can
enter without sharing that information.
So you can also go in, let's say that the application needed your email, your profile
information, and your social media.
You could go and say, okay, I'm okay with sharing my social media data, but I'm not
okay sharing my email and my profile.
And you can uncheck that part of the data as well.
So only the data that the user has explicitly entered
and said can be shared would be shared.
Now, maybe I can ask a little bit
about how Unstoppable Domains works for just regular website domains.
Because we've been looking at this in packet about how we can do domains for web hosting.
And I understand there's a few projects that do domains.
But by and large, you to like install something in order to
access the domain so maybe you could speak a little bit to that um you have to install something to
access the domain i'm not really sure what that means okay so like if i register register CJD.crypto and I want to set up a website on it, I run a website.
Okay, great.
But if my grandmother goes to types in CJD.crypto into her 1998 Windows computer or whatever, that's not going to work because her ISP is going to resolve to ICANN and the regular domain name.com and stuff and the dot crypto
isn't one of the i can domains as far as i know so how how do you guys uh deal with that
i am understanding the question i'm so sorry. So when you get Sandy.crypto, that domain is yours in order to use it with a website.
You know, a Web3 domain obviously is used with Opera Brave or an extension from Chrome.
You can't it's not searchable on Bing or on Firefox because it's not a DNS.
or on Firefox because it's not a DNS.
But what you can do is you can link sandy.crypto
to an IPFS address.
And that IPF address would take you to your Web3 website.
Got it.
There's nothing else that you have to install.
Unless you're talking about a Chrome extension,
in order for you to access it on Chrome,
then you would have to install a Chrome extension to be able to find that
website on Chrome. But Opera and Bray, which are native Web3,
they would work, you know, as is. Now, yeah,
the new thing that we have just launched is tokenization of a Web2
website. So let's say I own sandy.com. I can tokenize sandy.com. So sandy.com today would
work just like a Web2 website, right? I can put it up. It's searchable. It's taggable. Google loves
it. Bing loves it. But then I can tokenize it, meaning I can then also place a copy on chain.
I can connect it with the blockchain.
And now I can also give it all of the superpowers that Web3 has, i.e. the ability to transact,
the ability to message in an encrypted fashion, etc. So then your Web2 domain also has properties
of a Web3 domain because you've now tokenized that. Okay, that's interesting.
So let me tell you what I had in my mind.
And let me preface this with the fact that from a crypto perspective, I'm old.
Hello, can you both hear me or no?
You cut out, but I hear you now.
Anybody there?
Can you not hear us anymore?
Hello?
Hello?
I think she can't hear us anymore.
Can you hear us?
Yeah, I think
X decided
to make it so she can't hear us anymore.
We're having some
problems.
The one person I really wanted to talk to.
Oh, well.
She'll be back.
Yeah, yeah.
DeFi Tycoon, you might also want to leave and come back to try to connect.
X is just X-ing people off.
Yeah.
Can't you just drop her down and bring her back up?
She already left, and she should come back to try that.
Yeah, inviting people up to the stage is so buggy.
I guess you can't lay off 80% of your staff.
Well, Elon laid off 80% or 90% of the staff,
and we all thought the website was going to crash.
And instead, we just got buggy spaces.
So, I mean, it's incredible.
Yeah.
Okay, I guess we don't have DeFi Tycoon either, so that's all right.
Crypto XL, how are you connected to PKT?
I'm not sure if I've seen you before, but you have it in your bio.
Yeah.
Long story short is Caleb and I worked on the white paper and I operate a bridge. It bridge for ODAP and Packet and Crypto Legend.
I think I did maybe one of the early wallets.
That too, yeah. OG. But I was liking the way the conversation was going because it is something that I think needs to be solved
in terms of, like, decentralizing dApps.
And, you know, I was obviously brave as the browser to do that through,
but most people still use stuff like Chrome
But most people still use stuff like Chrome and surprisingly enough Safari.
and, surprisingly enough, Safari.
And there's no easy to use DNS for our space that gets us to crypto domains.
So you have no choice but to use a plugin at this point.
It's all brave.
And I was checking into like the the you know crypto
domains and i i think i typed one in just just to see what happened and it was like brave popped
up this window and said do you want to use cloudflare to resolve that domain. And then I was like, oh, Cloudflare is not unstoppable.
Like Cloudflare has been known to just yank stuff.
And I guess that's kind of the thing.
Like everybody wants to look unstoppable,
but when it actually becomes unstoppable,
people like put up domains with malware
and child porn and stuff.
And then it's like, oh, did you really want that
to be unstoppable?
Or was that like, you just, you wanted the idea of unstoppable, but without the actual impact?
Now, it doesn't, you know, I know there's stuff that's, you know, we'd rather not have or not bump into at least.
But, you know, I'm still not comfortable with the idea that what's his name, the Cloudflare guy is the one who gets to make those decisions about what is going to be a domain or what's going to be on the Internet and what's not.
You know, that's too centralized. i i think that the way bgp did it where if you can find an isp anywhere in the world who will host
you then you're good that was a pretty good compromise and it's worked for a long time
and you know centralizing everything through like one dns server it's cloudflare i'm not
i'm not sure i'm happy with that yeah cloudflare cannot be the traffic cop.
Otherwise, you know, the entire space is in trouble
because it's very easy to just go to whoever runs Cloudflare,
the Flare I'm not aware of,
and say you have to censor this, that, and the other.
So either there's, like, alternatives to Cloudflare in terms of routing or you use different routing protocols.
Isn't that what you were talking about before was using different routing protocols over IPv6?
I just think that the answer is to take the blockchain domains and have a whole bunch of different name servers
around the world all resolving them. And you just choose whichever one you want. And if any one of
them is not, you know, you kind of like have a list or something, like maybe on chain, a list of
valid domain servers. And if any one of them resolves something that's invalid,
like then, you know, you keep that signed message
and you present that as evidence that they're doing something wrong.
You know, you kind of, they can all check each other.
That would be what you'd do if you wanted to have domains
that couldn't be taken down.
That's basically like a network of decentralized reverse VPNs.
Yeah, kind of, you know, it's just like, it's just a bunch of name servers.
But what's really cool that you can do is you can use DNSSEC so that everything's signed.
And then once it's signed, it's like, if you sign off on something that's invalid, you're saying that this domain doesn't
exist and really it does, then that's going to create a paper trail that's going to come
back to you and you can be accused of having censored a domain and then people will know
that and then you can be removed from the list. And yeah, I mean, a lot of things can work. I think using 1111 using Cloudflare
to resolve all the Web3 domains is I'm not I'm not convinced. I know you do things the janky way until you've got them working.
But running everything through Cloudflare is, I think, unduly janky.
It's probably more janky than just having a whole bunch of different top-level domains
around the world in different countries, and you can register in any country.
Running everything through Cloudflare
is legitimately bad.
But that's not an unstoppable domains problem
or a handshake or an ETH.
That's a problem with Brave, if I not mistaken it's it's the way brave
chose to integrate this if i'm not if i'm understanding correctly again
yeah unfortunately we don't have uh sandy here still with us she said um towards the end
anyway and she has another meeting to jump to. Oh, it's too bad.
I really wanted to talk about, you know, maybe some partnership or something that we could do because we're really interested in this getting into decentralized domains.
And me being like an old person in the crypto space, old meaning I don't understand anything from post 2015.
So I just need everything to be explained to me how anything like DeFi works.
Yeah.
I'll absolutely talk to her in our email chain and see if she's interested to loop you guys
in or create a telegram room.
Yeah.
And then other people are having connection issues, but yeah, I think we're coming up to the end of this space here
I want to thank the speakers who are still here for coming
and if you are here as a space cadet coordinates are x288
and yeah so before we're going to wrap up the space for everyone who's listening
we'll PKT and the PKT community will hang out for a little bit longer to just chat a little bit more.
But for everyone else, thank you for coming.
Thank you to the speakers for coming.
And we'll see you guys next week.
Yeah, Block, CryptoXL.
If you guys want to say any last words to see yourselves out or you can hang out too, of course.
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
I learned a lot, which
was the plan. That was definitely
the plan was to learn. So
I'm going to hang out with you guys. I'm going to keep listening in
lurking in the
proverbial shadows. But thanks
for having me. I appreciate it. I'll
come back to these. You say you do this
like once a week, did you say, Kurt?
Yep, every week. Same time.
Cool, cool. I'll be here.
Thank you. And CryptoXL?
Yeah, it's great space.
I'll definitely be hanging on for the rest of the conversation.
So thank you for having me up.
Of course.
So, Demetrius, would you like to come up real quick?
Is that a good idea, Burgers?
Yeah, drag him up.
Yeah, for sure.
Drag him up.
On my side
you know to the PKT community
obviously I'm not
currently network steward
but still
you know still doing stuff
you know not
busting my tail but
keeping up with the things that I've been doing and
we obviously have the
spaces going every week we have you know trying to chase down this this PR it's
it's been this very strange experience like I don't know why everything is
taking a while we're waiting on independent article as well should be
up today today's Wednesday so yeah chasing down PR we got the the
YouTube video that's pretty cool posted that in discord and yeah so we're right
now what I'm doing is focusing on partnerships I think we're following up
with people from last week we're're going to follow up with Unstoppable.
And, you know, that'll be less time consuming for me in the meantime while we're, you know,
while I'm not a network steward, but could also be very impactful.
So that's me.
Dimitris, if you would like to say a little bit about what you're doing.
Yes. What your practice is.
Yeah. Hello. Yeah.
Hello.
Thanks for having me.
I just sent a link to a quick report I made on the Network Steward channel on Discord.
So if everyone wants to have a more detailed look, they can go ahead.
I'm going to run through it a bit quickly.
So for phase one, we had to update the Unihost application for the Raspberry Pi.
That has been up and working with a new proxy server that we have. So the whole process is easier to install and manage.
I am planning to run some tests on x86 as well.
I haven't done that yet.
And the next thing is also publishing a video on how to.
This is on editing, so I haven't completed that yet.
Now, on the technical side with phase two, which was to provide packet network access to windows and mac and osx users now this is somehow
done and not done what i mean is that we have a test server up and running and thanks to He has provided me with making that work. So on OSX, it seems to be working fine.
So you can connect with your VPN client and get VPN exit for normal internet traffic, as well as getting to the pocket network through that we have by
encountering some issues with the Windows client so you can connect through
the Windows native client and you get your VPN exit working for your IPv4 traffic, but unfortunately we don't have a packet network access yet.
I'm still looking into that.
On the URL again, you can see some details on how you can test it yourself.
There are some certificate files that are involved that you need to download in order to test it right now on either OSX, iOS or Windows.
But you can go ahead and test it.
Keep in mind that we're still doing development on that server.
So at some point it may stop working,
but we will notify you of that.
So this is, let's say, kind of halfway done,
but there is significant progress there.
And finally, there is also how to video for that process, how to get Windows, let's say, to connect to the packet network.
This, of course, is not completed because, first of all, I want to make sure that we can access also the packet network through that process.
So once we get this done, hopefully we'll have the video as well.
Once we get this done, hopefully we'll have the video as well.
And for phase three, which is the domains, nothing yet.
So I think there is progress.
Not, let's say, as much as I would like to.
I would have liked to have phase two, at least the technical side, complete it.
Let's hope, by the end of the week, I'll have more on that.
Feel free if you have any questions, any notes, anything, go ahead, ask me.
me uh my one question was to you know just to tell everyone exactly in layman's terms what
you're doing um very put put very simply ah yeah uh for i i think me as a developer, I'm not that good into putting it in plain simply, but
the overall goal for this is to increase accessibility to the packet network across different platforms
so more and more users can access the packet network easier that's one major goal
the other goal would be to bring sites into the packet network so once we have let's say
people that can access the packet network more easily then hopefully we'll also have people building more sites within
the packet network and a side let's say also project uh on top of phase two is to offer
on the current packet server a way for people to earn packet So the idea is that providing this VPN access will be done through
payment through packets. So that will be also an incentive, let's say, for people to run
more nodes and servers on the network. Does that answer your question?
servers on the network.
Does that answer your question?
Let me give it a shot.
You can only reach the CJDNS network
if you got CJDNS installed.
This is going to make it so you can use a regular VPN
that works on every computer to connect to a VPN server,
which will get you to the CJDNS network.
Let me make it even simpler.
The way that you access the packet network is through a VPN.
You can build sites in the packet network,
and the way you access those sites is through a VPN.
So he's making it so that any person on any computer,
anywhere in the world can access the packet network,
and people can then build sites within the packet network.
And it lives in this sovereign part of the Internet.
Let me make it even simpler.
Fucking utility.
Yeah, baby.
Yeah, baby.
Thank you guys for chipping in.
Thank you guys for chipping in.
Yeah, it would be great if we could have more websites building a packet network.
I think that's super important.
So glad we're moving along with that.
Yeah.
PKT, if there's any...
I can add that I'm already running one on my Pi, but there's no point of sharing
it because it literally has nothing.
So maybe my next goal would be to publish all my networks to relevant stuff there.
And that way, even let's say force people to access the packet network and look at it through there.
Yeah, maybe post a link to Discord and we can click that and join there.
Dimitri, I have a question as well.
We had talked about, and Caleb, maybe you need to jump in on this additionally, is we had discussed making it so people can use the part of their phone or operating system to create a custom VPN that's for the packet network in particular.
So essentially providing a free VPN
that's providing the access to packet network.
Is that something that's also in the roadmap?
What's that?
A free VPN for access to packet network?
I wasn't thinking it's going to be free.
I think it's going to be 100 packets for a month.
But free? Got it. Well, I'm talking about just being able to set the coordinates into your phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. network i wasn't thinking it's going to be free it's going to be 100 packet for a month but free
got it well i'm talking about just being able to set the coordinates into your phone yeah yeah
to use it the free version it should work it should work i haven't tested on the phone i tested on my
mac because demetrius doesn't have a mac so i tested on my mac and it works um i it should
work on an iphone and right now there's just this one, there's one file to install for, you know, it's not like per user.
It's just like one, just one, one user and everybody can use it for testing.
So it's free right now.
But the point is to make it so you pay a hundred packet and you get your own, get your own credentials and you can install that for a month.
But yeah, it should work on iPhone.
Yeah, no, I was talking about, okay, got it.
Yeah.
Because we were talking about a substitute for the actual,
for having an actual VPN app.
And when you go to your network settings on, yeah, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just download, it's like a a demetrius yeah this thing it's
just download the mobile config file and like open that in your iphone and i think that works
yeah so basically if you go right now into the network steward channel i have posted a link there
the link there and it has the instructions just under the phase two number one section.
So you can see the instructions for OS X and iOS.
There's as Caleb mentioned, there is a file that you need to download and in a way import
and yeah, you can try that out on our test server.
So this is the idea that basically you use the native VPN client of whatever platform you're running and connect to the packet network.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, it does.
Yeah, it's great. I mean, that's going to be incredibly powerful.
And, you know, the key is just lowering the barrier to entry to participate.
And I think some people may be even confused on what the packet network is and why it's important.
uh and i can take a quick stab at it um you know there's a lot of people working obviously in the
And I can take a quick stab at it.
in the cryptocurrency space and and we find that a lot of the crypto world really revolves around
tokenization and that's just a obviously a fundamental pillar. But there's also this ongoing discussion about utility.
And I think where we're looking as, you know, people in the crypto space and whether you're trading mean coins or holding Bitcoin long term or, you know, whatever your interests are,
really, people are looking for this bridge between the way that people in the world operate today,
you know, seven plus billion people operating their lives every single day. What are what are
they using, you know, for technology, for access to information, for access to content?
And then what benefits can be provided by crypto?
And so there's been this ongoing conversation about utility.
But what you find when you zoom out is that even the crypto projects are generally operating on the incumbent, you know, Fortune 500, Global 1000 company infrastructures.
Governments in general control access to information in certain places around the world.
Even in free first world countries, you find the overarching, you know, governments,
we see that even, you know, very, very much so in America, you know, controlling certain things,
being able to de-platform people, you know, and try and avert dissonance. And there's this idea that, you know that tokenization is going to change the world. Well,
and that's maybe possible. But if you really think about it, I mean, a very small amount of
people are using crypto in their everyday lives. Caleb had invented in 2011 a technology called CJDNS. And the big idea, and I mean, I think there's a lot of big
ideas of CJDNS. It was recently incorporated into Bitcoin Core about a year and a half ago.
And so the Bitcoin community found value in CJDNS. The big idea here is, if possible for people to get Internet access without having a direct Internet connection to an ISP using mesh networking.
That's just one of the facets of that technology.
It's extraordinarily novel.
So, for instance, if I have Internet access and Caleb's my neighbor, Caleb could connect to me and he could get access to the internet.
So in essence, you're building a global mesh network.
Now, there's another facet to the CJDNS technology.
And this is really where PKT came into the picture, which is making it so that you could set up a website essentially in this overlay network
and have complete sovereignty on your ability to operate that website.
So in essence, I could set up the website on my own computer or my own personal server. I can run the CJDNS technology,
and that website will be accessible in the interwebs,
in this network that was originally called Hyperborea.
And as we expand out,
our communication and marketing is being referred to
as the packet network.
And what's cool about that, right? So what's cool about that is that I'm essentially now hosting a website that nobody can
take down. And that's incredibly powerful. It's on comparable power of why someone would run a
Bitcoin mining node. A lot of people say when you're running a Bitcoin node,
you're basically your own bank.
And in this case, if you don't use CJDNS,
you're relying on centralized infrastructure for your website,
which means you're getting a hosting provider
and there's a DNS provider
and there's a bunch of different attack vectors
that could take your website off the internet if the powers that be so choose.
If you run a website in CJDNS, that's not possible.
Now, people could choose to not connect to
that node in particular or that bad actor. But the power of that is providing essentially a place
for sovereignty, for digital sovereignty for the world. And I think within this world of blockchain,
that's incredibly powerful since there's so many projects out there that are
communicating this narrative of decentralization,
but then operate their website on AWS and their DNS resolves in the traditional way.
So this is kind of the mission statement on the packet side,
which was to create an incentive through mining
for people to operate infrastructure
that powers this decentralized network.
And I know it's a lot of big words,
but the main idea is in the same way that Bitcoin was able to empower people around the world, economically incentivize them to run
Bitcoin nodes, which created essentially what we could call decentralized money.
And by people around the world doing this, it was able to build a currency that's valued at a larger
level than the four largest banks in the world combined. You could never just come out and say,
hey, I'm going to build something, a financial system that's bigger than the four biggest banks
in the world combined. But when you put the power of the people together, that is what's happened
over the last 14 years. And so PACKET is leading this charge to create that same kind of sovereignty around internet connectivity and being able to host the rest of the crypto world is working towards, which is, you know, a true decentralized Internet that can help lend itself to giving the sovereignty and the decentralization that all these projects are striving for.
Did I miss anything, Caleb?
I think you got it cool um hey crypto xl what what is the thing that
excites you the most about what the packet project represents and obviously you and i've been talking
about this since before the blockchain launch but you know you're still here what what are the
things that get you up in the morning on working on the
packet project? It's been the same narrative for me all along, which is the decentralized internet
for all the reasons that you cited. And now some of the reasons around privacy as well.
I mean, what does that internet look like? Somewhere early on in the process, maybe when
we were still mantle or something like that, I remember somebody was on a call.
I don't know where he came from.
He just magically popped up on a call.
And he told us we had to implement a backdoor and all encryption.
And Caleb's response to him then was that, actually, we're not implementing encryption.
It's open.
It's all open source.
If somebody wants to do that, they open. It's all open source.
If somebody wants to do that, they can.
And then he went away.
And my impression was that this was somebody who worked for some agency somewhere that was interested in making sure that they had access to any of the data going around on the Internet.
I remember that guy.
Yeah.
He was like a, no, I mean, he wasn't there on official business,
but he was some kind of like NSA spook or something.
Yeah.
And he obviously had no idea how the internet or open source worked.
He's like, oh, we're going to make encryption.
Oh, well, you better put on some lawful intercept stuff in that.
What the fuck are you thinking about?
Yeah.
And when you told him that we weren't doing that and it wasn't going to be,
because he was worried that it was going to be over 5G and stuff like that.
And when he realized that it really wasn't something that he needed to be
concerned with encryption-wise, he went away.
But now, coming full circle, seeing sort of like the regulatory action around everything
we're doing, I think it's important to build the tools.
Like, you know, fire is a tool.
It can cook your food or it can burn you.
And as technologists and as a project, you know, our mission is to objectively build
the most universal technology we can possibly iterate on.
And, yeah, are there going to be bad actors?
For sure.
Are there solutions in place so that bad action can be minimized in a decentralized way?
I think so.
I mean, a lot of this is experimental, so we'll see.
But I think what gets me up in the morning is the idea of a better Internet.
You know, part of our narrative is like the next billion people.
Like, I think that that's still very important.
But you don't actually get the next billion people without also having privacy,
without also having the ability to, like, work around a government that wants to silence their speech.
So data, for me, I think it's at the end of the day, you know, in everything that we're
doing right now in technology, it's all about data sovereignty.
And I think packet does bring that to the table.
Imagine if we put like a checkbox and it said like it said, we can encryption to allow lawful intercept.
And it just says, check this box if required by local law.
All right.
Who's going to check that?
It'd be funny.
It'd definitely be fun.
It'd definitely be fun.
By the way, guys, Sandy did say that, yeah,
she's interested to chat PKT team.
So I'll get that column link over to the team soon.
All right.
Sounds cool.
And, yeah, is there any
last comments from anybody
before we kind of wrap the space up
okay
yeah I think you can wrap it up
yeah
okay yeah thanks again everybody
at the end of this space
just want to say one more time for the space cadets, X288 coordinates.
Everyone else, thanks for coming. Thanks for being here.
We'll be here next week. And same to the guests. Thanks for coming.
Thanks for hosting, Kurt. Appreciate it.
Thank you, everyone.
Thank you all.
All right. Bye. everyone thank you all thank you all right
