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Special Guest ☕️ @JustinMezzell on Coffee w/ Captain from @dGenNetwork
Recorded: Nov. 23, 2022 Duration: 2:54:04Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. gmgm thanks for joining we'll get rolling here in a minute or two
appreciate everyone being here
i gotta tell everyone steve we're here we're here talking like basically like not we spend a lot of
time like prepping for the show i don't want to mislead anyone but in our our you know few minutes
leading up to the show we'll often scramble for a little bit of an outline and uh if you think like this
breakfast bit with steve is a is a bit i gotta it's it's it's the real authentic steve because
he he just sent me a text talking about our cold open saying we were cold open then which horse
we're backing market update etc but instead of saying cold open, he goes, I think we did do the food open.
So this is authentic.
Oh my God, dude, that, I can't believe I,
dude, I, my typos, it's so funny.
Shout out to Drew Crit actually yesterday
because you talk about my typos.
I can't remember what, God, it was like,
I was doing some tweet yesterday
and I just get this response from Drew that goes, it's not too late to edit this.
And it was in the 30 minute window. And I was like, oh, wow, I had like two mega typos in there.
And I actually said to Drew, I'm like, you know, a real friend tells you when there's something in your teeth.
A real friend tells you when you have typos in your tweets.
A G tells you when you have typos in your tweets in the first 30 minutes because you can make that change so uh shout out to drew crit on that one but yeah my typos are unsalvageable
i was actually sending some dms to mackie yesterday about some things and um as i'm typing i think it
was mackie who i was sending him to i just see like typos going in and i'm just like i'm not
correcting these it has been yesterday i had one of those days where like basically from 8 a.m.
coffee until I would say probably about 10 to 10 30 p.m.
I was working basically at some very on something of some time.
It was just meetings back to back to back spaces had another spaces with
rally who I'm doing a partnership with last night.
So it was just kind of like this like you know wire to wire
day and i'm like typing and i'm like i am too mentally exhausted to even correct my typos
i'm like that's close enough it's close enough they know what i'm trying to say so it was uh
it was a it was it was an it was a mentally exhausting day yesterday but i mean good one
it's like one of those things where i said this in a tweet i've never been more excited
to go to work than i am now the conversations we're having about where dj is headed uh monday
and everything and how we're trying to like get on the tracks there for next year and what we're
doing and our runway and our reserves like that stuff i've never been more excited about um so
there's just a lot of good things happening right now i think in web 3 and told my wife like it's
just the happiest i've been professionally in my life I was actually working on a thread which I gotta get um together and
um about working in web three because it's it's a question that keeps coming up and I figured I
just thread it so that'll be coming out hopefully in the next week or so I'm gonna drop a an image
in the comments here and I I don't know i should go find it because i don't know who
originally sent it out it was actually i think a ryan uh ryan carson retweet uh or a quote tweet
maybe um but it's it's it's really simple and i will find the thread to give it a little more
a little more narrative but um really simple but i found profound when it just it shows the difference
between an audience and a community and i know we've talked about many times on here how how
grateful we are not just for our you know everyone listening in and tuning in and all of our guest
speakers like punter by the way punter go ahead and track down that interview you did uh with steve
i'd love it for you to pin it up above, if you don't mind.
Oh, as a quick, as a quick, very quick aside on,
or actually you go ahead and finish,
then I'll give you a quick aside on that.
Go ahead, Pat, my bad.
No, I just can say like, it's the quality of people. It's something I can't overstate how grateful we are,
you know, whether it's, you know, someone,
as I mentioned this morning
like it never ceases to amaze me how we can be talking about nearly any any subject any topic
and almost instantly someone pops up and is a subject matter expert or they're the co-founder
or a team member or used to work with bob eiger and it's just the the quality of individuals it's it's that not only the the quality is impressive but the
that that graph that you see it's like it's describing it in one image better than i'm
doing here fumbling over my words but the what is so i think powerful or impactful uh and really
resonates with both steve and i is it's not just us him and i helping
individuals or helping listeners like we it makes us feel really good anytime that we're able to
share something that someone else is able to take something out of but more so than that is the
these connections that that just occur it feels like almost daily amongst our community there
was one i think i must have had to shift gear
because it was, I don't remember hearing it,
but there was an interaction earlier this week
that a couple of people connected on stage
or in the comments.
And next thing you know,
they both found out they're in Miami.
And later that evening, they met up in person
and now they're friends.
It's like, that's the kind of stuff that,
you know, I heard,
I took it out of your interview with Punter yesterday, just talking about how really, truly like
special and unique this time is.
And I can't sum it up in words better than, than that community greater than, than audience
graph.
And just wanted to get out, get out there and our food open this morning.
I mean, uh, if I could, I don't know if I'm rugging or not. I couldn't hear cap
off the top. I hope you guys can hear me. No, I got you. Can you hear me or no? Yeah, I got you.
So yeah, so it very rarely do you get a chance to interview the interviewer of our time. I mean,
Steve is just so damn good at this. And you know, he was coming on for those who don't know,
Clubhouse James, Clubhouse,
James and Clubhouse archives run a series called inside, I believe it's inside the clubhouse,
or in the clubhouse and, and, you know, talking about all the members of the key society and the
people that are the amazing people that are involved in the project. So, you know, James
pings me the night before and goes, Hey, you want to interview Steve tomorrow? And I'm like,
I mean, first of all, I would obviously jump at the chance to do that
at any opportunity.
But all of a sudden, I'm scrambling to prepare.
I really wanted it to be something good, something special.
I wanted people to get something out of it
other than the endless, terrible breakfast takes
and hearing about progressive ad nauseum.
We did get a progressive, though.
I know we got at least one.
I sort of did it.
I think it was a girl in the metaverse
in the secret clubhouse chat
said something to the effect of
one of these days, Steve and I are going to
have a four-hour space and talk about our days in journalism.
I actually typed it up in the chat.
I was going to make a joke,
but I don't know
everyone really well in there and i didn't want anything the guy was like trolling steve but like
i know i can say it here and people know that i'm i mean it endearingly but i was going to make a
somewhat of a comment to the i think the actual word i the line i typed out was the over under
setting the over under on the number of times yakima washington is mentioned at four and a half
during the four-hour interview but i i just deleted it because i don't know everyone quite
that well in there but uh do you think that's a fair line sorry to interject here but i i four
and a half in a four-hour interview oh uh four and a half in a four-hour interview is uh i think
that's a high over i think probably two and a half is where i would set that line i'd say it's a hot
line that might come down but um let's go to our bookie here. Bunch. What are your,
what are your takes on my four and a half line?
I think three and a half is probably the appropriate line. Um,
I have been able to witness Steve on some calls in the last week with,
uh, the folks he's helping us with some stuff at Starbucks.
And I've heard the Yakima Washington.hington oh there's washington there's a
state of well to be fair like you got it i will defend myself first of all one bunch you is the
ultimate line setter so i have to go with his expertise here i texted bunch you i'm like what
do you think the osu michigan line opens at i initially had double digits now i'm going like
five and a half six and bunch who's like seven and a half eight and it opens up at various fair sports books like seven and a half, eight. And it opens up at various
sports books at seven and a half or eight. So Bunchu is the line setter. He knows his stuff,
number one. Number two, I have to defend myself. I'm talking to Starbucks people.
They work in Seattle. It's such a fun, novel fact. I'm trying to endear myself to these
brilliant corporate people over at the Starbucks world. And so, you know, bringing up a very obscure city in the middle of their state,
market one, TV market 125 is sort of my go-to.
So if I can bring up like Yakima and Leavenworth,
anybody who's been to Washington, by the way, Leavenworth is electric.
You got to go there.
It's like a little German, like 1920s Vienna town type thing.
But, which is a weird weird description but you probably know what
i mean everything's made out of like wood like it's like starbucks is like wood and like the
holiday inn and the mcdonald's like they break building code for everything just to do that
like from their corporate offices but in fairness like that is a place that i have to insert that
one so i'll uh i'll give myself a little grace there or defend myself at least a little bit well it's funny because it makes it makes perfect sense in that context uh i didn't realize
that it was something that you do outside of that context as much so i think it's hilarious
that's incredible but thanks punter go ahead i was gonna say i was gonna has anyone done the ai
like we need we need i know there's AI Twitter.
Like, you can, there's an AI machine that, like, tweets, sends tweets as if it was the person.
But it's reading the, you know, their timeline and historical tweets.
We need an AI for spaces.
And, like, I could pretty much write, I think, what the AI would say, like a Steve conversation.
Or at least the words it would absolutely grab.
I think I'm pretty dialed in. There be like there'd be a shitty breakfast take like if it was
doing AI for me there would be a shitty breakfast take uh I'd be like I was eating chicken pocata
for breakfast at progressive wall uh before I went to a multinational at Nestle uh be and then I would
be something about like being kind and uh something like
like overly optimistic and exciting about this time and how wonderful mad wonderfully magical
this time is right now and we're in nfts it'll probably be something like that like right i mean
like what am i missing on that bingo card love that oh of course it would say love that progress
progressive uh yeah uh no but but in all honesty i I threw it up in the Jumbotron.
So please check it out later.
I've actually listened back a couple of times.
I try to hone my skills.
But one thing, one takeaway, and I hope my wife can overhear this this morning, is just
the amazing amount of support we get in this space from our loved ones to give us the time and the space.
Let me speak up a little bit louder so my wife can hear this. But no, we really appreciate and
Mrs. NFT Bark provides such a level of support and enthusiasm behind what Steve's doing each
and every day. And that just gives you the power to keep going. So it's really great. I hope
everybody gets a chance to hear that. And shout out, Hunter. I'll say this before we go on and then I'll move on because I get
very uncomfortable talking about myself. That's why I tend to be the interviewer, not the interviewee.
The shout out to Hunter because, you know, James tasked him and said, I what he said,
what do you want to do? He's like, I want James said to Hunter, I want to learn something about
Steve. We don't know. And I think Hunter's reaction was the same as a lot of people like
this dude shares virtually, you know, every part of his life in the morning. It's part of who I am. It's like, I like to share who I am. I think that you find sort of those the good and the bad. Like, I think you find a lot of that sort of shared mutual respect and love in the cracks, right with with the things that you do like that. So I think, you know, I do but like punter did like he asked me about my parents growing up which is something a lot of people haven't asked me
about he asked me about when i met mrs nft bark and got that story from when we first met which
nobody's kind of ever really asked about and some some personal stuff about like stuff that sort of
shaped me versus you know a lot of people ask about like you and i've done you know a handful
interviews they do get like the tech background and how nerdy I was in like sixth grade, seventh grade. But I even added a little bit to that and
talked about, actually, I don't know, this may be too nerdy for even Justin. I know Justin's in the
crowd and like he's him and I have, I think, similar, you know, tech sensibilities. But I
talked about when I was coding multi-user dimensions, MUDs back in the day, which is
something that I hadn't really talked about before. So, you know, even that level of things.
But so, yeah, it was good.
And I appreciate, you know, appreciate you asking a lot of like, you know,
great questions and kind of probing some stuff out of me.
So All Circles, I know you popped up and threw up a hand.
And then real quick before we go to All Circles, just want to welcome everyone.
Thanks for being here.
I know we have some new listeners.
Thanks to our special guest today, Justin.
Really excited to talk Moonbirds here in a little bit probably get into that uh
second half the hour as we we start heading toward nine and uh we'll have our market update here in
a little bit and uh a lot to get through this morning exciting day uh we've got uh we've had
we've been uh we've been fortunate this week a few uh individuals projects have reached out and
and wanted they're already in the spirit of giving and so we've got some goodies
to give away, I think, I don't
want to say every day, but we've got some fun stuff. We've got
an awesome turkey ball we're going to give away tomorrow,
turkey day ball from courtesy of round 21
and there is, linked up above,
there are some allow list
spots, allow list giveaway
the Alphabot
link is up above if anyone's interested, check
out Savage Nation.
And we may circle back to that a little later, but I want to get to our guests here.
Circles, GM, welcome and thanks for your patience.
No problem, GM.
Yeah, I started to be in that space with Steven Punter, but then my phone was desperately dying
and I don't work at a place that I can have it easily charged and listen to the same thing so i'm gonna have to go back and listen to it um but uh you guys were talking about
ai and i had to come up for my stupid little comment of uh honestly with you guys being on
spaces so much they'll just be able to listen back to all the recordings of coffee with captain and
be able to kind of just generate a whole personality based on that. So, I mean, realistically, give it a year or two,
and that might be the new meta.
I don't understand it enough.
We do need to have an AI panel one of these days
because I saw something here that there is a –
it's kind of like – it's like Moore's Law,
but it's to the extreme is is my understanding, in AI.
And there's some sort of major update.
I know I'm sounding really ignorant here, but there's something happening in the end of this year, early next year,
that will go from version 3 to version 4 on something, and it just takes it till the processing power is a thousandfold.
So I don't think we're too far away from crazy speaking
of i saw a few tweets yesterday on a uh fishing site it was a it was a video it looked like a
live video with with elon and jack and and these are it has a qr code in it these are these are
scams they're deep fakes and don't don't fall for any of that. I think everyone that tweeted it deleted it and sent up a follow-up tweet.
But just be aware of that stuff.
On the topic of AI and video, it is getting hard to distinguish.
There was an SBF one here recently that was like a FTX compensation or something like that.
There's a lot of scam, a lot of phishing links floating around now. So just be careful. you know, FTX compensation or something like that. And these are all, there's,
there's a lot of scam,
a lot of phishing links floating around now.
So just be careful and,
and don't trust the video.
And even,
even from Steve or I.
Yeah.
And I mean,
I'm being mostly sarcastic about them taking over y'all's space or
whatever,
but I mean,
heck it was linked,
I think at the DGEN or the war room about the AI writing articles. And I mean, heck, it was linked, I think, in the war room about the AI writing articles.
And, I mean, they're able to turn out some decent material kind of all on their own.
So it's definitely interesting to watch.
Yeah, AI is getting smarter.
Actually, by this time next year, it'll just be me and Cap's apes up here.
But Cap and I will just sleep in, and it'll just run a show.
And it'll be able to just say anything we would say about the news of the day at that point, because we've pretty much just become
caricatures who can have similar takes every day. Although every now and then we surprise each other,
which is always fun. And I mean, the other thing about that's nice about being a human is you can
change your mind, right? I mean, that's that's something we've seen. I mean, you know, people
who listen to this show regularly have seen me change my mind on a lot of stuff based on new information. Cause I think
obviously don't be, you know, wishy-washy and change your mind a lot, but like, you know,
things like D gods is always my, my example. It's like, now I'm in the market for a D God
when I was like, ah, I don't love how Frank operates. I don't know how much I like this.
And then, you know, I've gone to saying like, wow, this guy's talking about true issues in
the space. He's thoughtful, he's nuanced, he's building. It's just, you know, sometimes the
personality is a little brash at times or, you know, trolling around spaces as much as he does.
But then I realized like, you know what, there's a lot more to this. And I was reading a little
too surface level and that was a bad job out of me. And now that I've learned more about what
they're doing and how they're trying to do it, I've gone from saying, I think this is a do not touch.
I'm going to sell my, you know, tube for my youth as soon as it runs to trading my tube
for a youth that I wanted with the Apple glasses to, you know, wanting to get a D-God and be
more involved with sort of what him and Kevin and that team are working on.
So it's just, you know, I think that that's the one thing that AI can't sort of do, but
I'm sure we'll be able to do too, is, you know, understanding the ability to change your mind on based on nuanced information.
So let's go. Let's go. I saw Hunter's hand go up and Susan and Cap.
I think we'll get into which horse are you backing because we've got a packed morning.
So we'll keep a pretty tight show. Exciting, exciting horse race today.
I think one thing because I see Ryan out there. I got to I think I I think I commented it.
This is where my brain I'm starting to age. But there was a picture of, I don't know, maybe like a decade ago of a conference. I think we definitely need to, we need to see some of these, some of these, you know up above and i i couldn't say it any better than than ryan or the uh the original poster the mustache
uh where the the term community is not is not interchangeable with audiences it used
is it's used often and um just doubling down on how much we appreciate the real community here and
all these
serendipitous connections that happen at what feels like almost on a daily basis.
Yeah, I saw Ryan pop up since you were summoned. Let's go Ryan,
punter, then Susan, then we'll get into this ad sponsor.
Summon my name and I shall appear friends.
Thanks. Thanks for saying hello. And I'll hop up real quick and comment. So
this is an example of how long it takes to build like real relationships and real community. So Jill, my wife and I started doing these conferences back in 2006. And we did a big event called Future Web Apps, invited David Hennemar Hansen and some folks in London. And then Gary heard about it.
And we did future of web design the next year.
And he showed up and said, can I speak?
And we said, sure.
And then he spoke at every conference after that.
And that was, I mean, that was how many years ago?
15 years ago or something.
And Gary and Kevin and I and everybody have, you know,
known each other that long.
So, and IRL events are just so good for building community.
This is why I'm super excited about Proof of Conference,
excited about Art Basel.
Like, it's so good to see people IRL.
So, looking forward to hanging out with you all IRL at some point.
Yeah, Ryan, it is not, Ryan is not a plant, but we'll tease up that,
which horse are you backing today?
It's actually 2023 conference you're most looking forward to today, number one.
And number two, this is so funny serendipitously.
I hadn't seen this tweet, the community and the other one,
but I was writing this thread on, like, how to work in Web3,
and people are asking what it is.
And, you know, I'll tip it a little bit on this show because like you know we talk about it but i talk about like where can you
provide value and the example i'll use there thankfully eventually will be mackie who um
shows up regularly in our show he sent us a cold essentially a cold dm to say you know he'd been on
the show a few times and he said hey are you do you all need video editing we're like yeah and
then we saw his videos and cap and i were like, holy crap, these are good. And we're like, can we pay you to do more of these? And, you know, he's like,
yeah, I suppose. I mean, he was just reaching out to like network. And now it's like anybody who
asks, I say, like, check him out and I'm invested in his success. And, you know, we're, we're
fortunate that we were here a little bit earlier than him and have been working in this space a
little longer that, you know, we have a network that we're now, he's now in and we connect him to. And all he had to do is reach
out and say, where can I add value? But another example I had in there that I was going to talk
about is IRL, where, you know, I said it on the spaces punter hosted yesterday, but, you know,
if you want to swing the bat, you have to be at the plate. And the only way to be at the plate is
to be at some of these conferences. And so I agree. I mean, I think there's so many things that can
happen there. I always caveat it though, with one of the things I've seen, this is my like old man
yelling at cloud rant. One of the things I've seen recently that like, or seen over the past year
that sometimes not frustrates me. I don't want to tell people not to have fun, but when I go to
these conferences and when I go to these meetups, it's not that I'm saying don't have fun or don't want to tell people not to have fun, but when I go to these conferences and when I go to these meetups, it's not that I'm saying don't have fun or don't have a drink, but the people I know who are like smart and then they'll get maybe a little over served or they're just like, hey, I'm here to party.
I'm not knocking anybody who has a good time, not telling you not to.
But if your goal is to work in Web3 and network, you want to be that person that when people meet you, they're like, hey, I, you know, had a really engaging conversation with this person. I had a good talk. Like we got to hang
out. It's like, if you were slurring your words, like you might be like, Hey, that person's fun to
hang out with, but it's not necessarily the person that you're like, Hey, I want to hire that person
or work with that person. And again, I'm not, it's a fine line because we all have fun and look, I,
I do it too. Sometimes it happens to the best of them. But like,
you know, as an example, when I went out to the proof event in LA, it's like, I would have a
cocktail. I would have a mocktail. I would have a cocktail. I would have a mocktail. I'd have a
water. Like, just like, it's okay to like have fun and unwind a little bit. And that's part of it.
But I think the amount of people who sometimes are really smart, I saw over the past year,
and then I would meet them at something and I'd be like, oh like are you thinking about these conversations you're having with these and it's
not just like founders and leaders but you might get one at bat or one discussion with somebody
uh and you want to be doing it in an authentic way but Ryan I saw your hand fly up when I said
that so I don't know if it's a counterpoint or an agreement yeah just a quick counterpoint then I
see Susan's got her hand up so and then I'll bounce um you know it's interesting I totally
agree that there's this IRL sort of window where you're having meetings and you're and it's kind of early
in the evening and 100% agree like be on point right um but then honestly like when it gets to
dance floor stage that that I've I've like forged some of my best friendships like on the dance floor
being hilarious having fun and at that point you know uh you start to build those kind of real fun friendships
and you're not talking about business you're just dancing and having fun so that's my plan
i'm gonna be businessy and then let's get on the dance floor you know at 1am and have some fun
we've heard a couple of dancing stories recently i know i know gordon has one that's that's uh
somewhat tragic and then was it gary or am i mistaken i um peter fam i think released a video
of him dancing recently but anyway i it these humans connections like like when you actually
connect and you're having fun it's like a fine balance like yeah if you end up throwing up or
like falling down that's not good.
But just want to put it out there.
Yeah.
Oh, go ahead, Ryan.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
No, I'm all done.
I'll bounce off stage now.
Thanks, guys.
No, I was going to say it's a good nuance.
It's a good nuance point because that's sort of also – it's like I have this balance where it's like, you know, by the time we were getting past midnight at Ape Fest, you know last year or in you know november of 2021 yeah like i think that's a little bit different or like you know the diplo
concert at uh you know that doodles put on like i think there's like a nuance to it like you do
want to like sort of have that balance of fun but like it's hard to explain i guess my my point
which is more if you're simply there like hey i'm just here for the party like that's nothing wrong
with that i'm not knocking it.
And you will make a lot of friendships and do things that way.
But to me, it's like a balance of like figuring out, you know,
the right way to do it, which is why I almost didn't say it. It's like do, you know, there's a fine balance of like the party
versus the friendship versus the, you know, again,
don't be falling over type thing.
So that's like one thing i generally uh try
to tell people just to be careful about like i always err on the side of caution but um but yeah
like that's again my old man yelling at cloud peace so um let's go susan then outer hey i wasn't
gonna say this part but peter fam i i just met him the other week at our first digital event
and i met him dancing which is just crazy he. I was totally intimidated. I cannot possibly keep up with Peter Pham.
But anyway, just going back to what Steve was saying,
I think that that's been the most wild learning for me
as a game developer coming into Web3
is how big a part of life Twitter Spaces is
in terms of running a company.
I really have to allocate at least a good couple hours of my day
as CEO of a
company to come into spaces. And it's been awesome. Like, especially going back to what you were
saying, Steve, really trying to understand why people are doing the things that they're doing.
You know, I was bothered by the same stuff on DGods. And there are a few projects that I've
seen making experiments that I do think have, you know, ripple implications to other projects.
And so I love the fact that we can actually all
you know not face to face but get together in these spaces and talk about like kind of the
the how and the why of what we're doing because i don't know for my part i personally feel like i
have a big responsibility to think through the decisions that we make you know things like
secondary royalties and pricing and stuff like that all of that's going to have you know potentially
trickle-down implications for the game industry in Web3 for a long time to come.
That's what happens early on in mobile.
And so I think that that's one of the best things about Twitter Spaces is you don't have to go to the other side of the world.
I'm starting to think I accomplish more in Spaces than I do going to events, though it is really fun to meet people in person.
Interesting you say that, Susan, the keynotes,
all that can be good content. It's I will echo everything that about everyone has said here that
it's it's hard to build the level of trust in a relationship as quickly as you can. It's harder
to do that online in a virtual environment as quickly as you can in It's harder to do that online in a virtual environment as quickly as
you can in one evening, right? Or one coffee, real life coffee or one lunch. I just, those
breaks during conferences, those after hours, it's, I've been bullish conferences my entire
professional career. And if I go back and connect dots, it's probably often like those where a lot
of opportunities
in my network today was ultimately established.
It's always a break though, right?
It's never the actual talks.
I guess that's what it comes down to.
And the game industry is the same thing.
I've been going to the Game Developer Conference since, I don't know, 1996.
And I don't even know if I've ever attended an actual session at one of them.
It's really always about the meeting up in bars and so forth and hanging around in dinners and things like that.
We really get to know people, not sitting in an audience being, you know, being talked at.
Yeah, well said.
I've attended over 100 conferences in my life and some great ones.
Steve, maybe we roll right into the, right into our our which horses were back in
here for 2023 and then go to outer and punter but the i i will say like of all the conferences
i've attended i i think i can remember one keynote like vividly and it was magic johnson
if you ever have a chance to hear magic speak he is he like steve and i joke about the greatest
of all time between mj and lebron i've never even
it's magic as far as a public speaker and then everyone else if you've ever seen magic speak
he's just his charisma it's so authentic and you know people talk about like working the crowd and
some speakers will work the stage and they'll walk the stage like it's his his ability to work a
crowd it's not just the stage it's it's in the audience and
it's like it is a it is a is a skill set that i think he he's a natural and he's also mastered
it to a level that i've i've never even like the greats like gary and so many other like incredible
speakers magic's on a whole nother uh he's in a tear by himself that's that's super interesting
because yeah gary i've seen gary speak and he and he's fantastic because he just, he's really good on his feet,
and he knows how to sort of, you know, address the current moment
because he keeps up with stuff.
So that's a good record.
But, yeah, let's roll into our Zed segment,
and then we'll get to other hands just to make sure we have time
to get through everything today.
But it's funny, Susan, again, like there are, you know, two things.
Like, one, you know, it's basically like
you, you also are reading the thread, because my third part of the thread, IRL was sort of my
second thing. It was like, where you add value IRL. And my third thing was basically show up
to Twitter spaces, because where else in the world can you get on stage, like, you listen to a podcast
with people, and you're able to actually talk to those people like, that's friggin crazy, right?
So I mean, like, that's one of those things that I know, um, you know, are, are, are pretty, uh, yeah. Like it's a whole different
world and, um, it is part of, part of the job if you work in web three and, um, yeah. And last
clarifying statement I'll say about that last piece, because I got a couple of people being
like, Oh, you don't want to drink at conferences to like DMS and things. Let me make this like
clear. I, I'm not like going to like gonna like obviously say some names but there are
people i know who i think who are respect who i respect who are smart and i've had people say like
when we talk about them working like oh yeah like they're just kind of a partier and that's i guess
the thing i don't think you want your brand to be right like you want to have sort of sizzle and
steak and not just be the fun person to be around so i would just nuance that with the conferences
but definitely by all means have fun i mean part of the most fun i had was you know out until 3 a.m at like a dead mouse concert with
captain and some of our friends at the first nft nyc so i'm you know by all means um go crazy and
i'll probably i'll probably regret saying all of this when i go to art basel and just absolutely
get you know have have have a little too much fun but um uh outer i saw your hands fly up do you
you seem you seem excited this morning i can tell you're chomping the bit let's let's run to outer
before we go to uh which parts are you're backing then we'll then i'll do the intro here oh my god
i love you steve you're in my mind because i want to directly respond to the stuff that you guys are
talking about right now um just a couple points um i definitely think meeting IRL is amazing.
I think it's kind of like the natural progression from spaces to there.
I think like they're not an or, they're an and thing.
Like hang out in Twitter spaces, people be here and meet them IRL if you can.
It's just a natural extension, I think, to solidify those relationships and make them real.
And if you haven't done it before, it's just like the most exciting thing when you finally put, I think, you know, real faces and real people and real hugs to, you know, the voices you've been hanging out with for a long time.
And I think as far as conferences, a couple of things on that.
And I'm a public speaker IRL.
So for me, like I'm not going to go to a conference unless I'm speaking, to be completely honest.
And that's where I kind of maybe disagree with Susan a little bit in that I think you need to know what the motivation is for going.
Because I think if you're a speaker, you actually do make amazing connections because you talk about something and then people connect with it and then they come up after.
And if you can get yourself speaking earlier at a multi-day conference, then they actually remember you day to day to day if you brand yourself. So like having carefully done this for a long time, I even like kind of almost have a uniform if I'm very serious about it because I appear very similarly every day if I speak on the first day because people are like, oh, were you the person that talked?
Like, oh, were you the person that talked, you know, I've had like a business thing happen on a Wednesday, even though I spoke on a Monday because they had time to approach me because I wasn't too busy on a Wednesday at a conference.
And they're like, I saw you speak on Monday.
You're that person.
Right.
And I kind of make sure I look very similar.
is that if you're really going there not to have fun and not to just meet friends, but to do
business, especially if you're like a sole proprietor or you're a consultant, the best
thing to do is not to go hang out with people that like are doing the same thing you are.
So for instance, like if I'm doing data visualization stuff, I'm not going to go to a
conference on data visualization because those are my competitors, not my actual buyers and
my consumers, right? So if I want, let's say, government clients, then I'm going to go to government conferences
and I'm going to pitch a talk on teaching them all data viz or something of the like.
And you might think that's counterintuitive because you're giving away intel.
But what that actually does is shows that you're a knowledge expert.
And then they say, oh, wow, this person knows everything.
Can you come and give my talk to our team?
And then from there, you teach them all this stuff. And they're like like I'm glad you know all this stuff and I'm glad you taught it to
us but can we hire you to do it because we don't have time anyway and that model has worked for me
in my business for seven years and it like without any marketing at all all internal like word of
mouth stuff and so like just kind of knowing what your motivation is to a conference, I think is really, really, really important.
And also don't be afraid to apply to speak if you do have something to say.
Like, you know, it gets you a free ticket in.
It gets you a slot.
It gets you connections.
And it's absolutely OK to not have like, you know, many thousands of followers on Twitter to have something important to say.
many thousands of followers on Twitter to have something important to say.
If you really do have a good talk and a good topic and you submit it,
you know, it just can add so much value to a conference.
And so when I go to NFT conferences,
I don't necessarily go for business opportunities.
If they come up, that's awesome.
But I go to meet you guys.
I am excited about it.
So that's my motivation to go there.
If I wanted to, you know.
Wait, did Out outer just rug yeah yeah maybe she got a call she was saying such heartwarming stuff too i'm gonna send her a heart and we'll keep going but i think it's one thing that she said
on there that i want to point out too is people beyond followers and beyond amount of uh you know sort of like clout or
founding or whatever is also like like looking beyond that is something that's important at
these IRL things I can tell you like as an example when I went to the proof event in LA
I talked to as many people as possible and try to make as many friends as possible there because
it's not about like oh I'm excited to necessarily meet the person with a hundred thousand followers it said she was removed from the space i don't know if uh i
didn't remove her i'm not sure what happened um try to invite outer back up because that was weird
um let's uh but yeah but like go in and go in and try to meet um you know meet the people that you
i don't know like like around like around. Cause it's like,
I'm not just excited about meeting like Justin and Kevin when I go to a
proof event, I'm excited about meeting, you know, Dave Toronto and,
you know, Ben Meadows and all the other people that I know from that
community. So I'll send out her a DM just to make sure that we didn't
ban her from the space somehow. That's very strange.
But going into the sponsor segment um which
horse are you backing is you know something that uh you know we're working on as a sponsorship with
zed run um we've been you guys get to ride go on this ride with us because you know last week we
kind of started off we're figuring out sort of the fun way to do it and we're trying to do more
and more of these sponsor segments that are you know able to like allow us to sort of bring in
some really cool sponsors that we
believe in,
but also at the same time provide some sort of fun and value.
We also decided to modify it.
Last week we did win play show off the podium.
Today we're doing win play show and we are encouraging people to comment
on the,
on the,
on the bottom right there.
And,
you know,
give us whichever one we miss.
Because instead of doing off the podium or saying something harsh
because we're trying to say ones we all believe in,
we figure we do some audience participation.
And I will give away a, I don't know, like, I don't know if we have a giveaway today,
but we'll give away something to somebody in the bottom.
You know what?
I'll say this.
I'll give away a Degen pass, a Degenesis pass.
So we have some that we're going to give away.
Wow.
We'll give away a Degenesis pass from our stash.
It's a 0.2 value that gets you in our war room,
which gets you all of our allow lists.
It gets you into that community,
into that group.
So comment below when we talk
which conference you're looking forward to most in 2023.
We will pick one person to get a Degenesis pass. Again, 0. you in our community um laurie i'll i'll go to you for a second before
we go in because i think you you were talking to outer as i was doing it it said she was removed
from the room which is odd yeah i don't know how to bring her back i want to i want to see if i can
invite her back in that's very strange you can so as a spaces host, I've accidentally done this before too. It's a, it's a simple
bump. One of the co-hosts or host removed her. So if you just click on the guests real quick
and scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll actually see, um, it'll, it'll, it'll show you
removed guests and then you can re-invite them back. Otherwise they're going to be banned
for the rest of the duration of the space. Okay, where do I
find that piece? Because actually
let's do this on the floor. Yeah, real quick.
The little people icon at the bottom
there. Yes, I got it.
It's done. Let's go all the way to the bottom.
It's done. Steve's notorious for muting
everyone. This is the first time banning a friend.
I don't think, I didn't do that.
I've got your back. It's all good.
Wait, hold on. Thanks, Lori. Okay, invited back. I didn't know I've got your back it's all good wait thanks thanks Laurie okay
invited back I didn't hit anything which is wait I think although here's what actually oh shit
here's what I think happened I'm gonna be honest here I was trying to send outer a heart okay outer
I want to do this because you're gonna think I'm trolling you because I've now screwed this up so
many times so I was I'm gonna tell you that this is my bad. I'm going to cop to it.
I was literally trying to send you a heart when you said, I go to conferences to meet you guys.
Like the private, like, love you.
You're like, you know, family to me.
And I probably am the culprit here.
I'm just going to cop to it.
No, probably.
It's near, it's near certain, but that's okay.
Steve, before this poll runs out though, cause I posted, I jumped the gun a little while
ago.
Let's, let's do your win play show.
Don't get back to hands.
We got to get our market update.
And then a special guest here.
Who is your win play show?
Who's in third place in terms of these conferences?
What are you most looking forward to in 2023?
Yeah.
So the three that we're ranking, just so people know, win play show, proof of conference,
ZCon and NFT NYC.
We'll give a little bit of reasoning why and we'll give our win play show.
So let's start off with the show between vcon proof
of conference and nft nyc doing this in honor of our special guest that we have today justin
mizelle who's doing proof of conference next year and the conversations we've had today about meeting
irl just seemed to go naturally so for me third place uh my show is nft nyc and the reasoning is
look i think it's a great conference that brings some great people. And it was amazing and magical right in November.
Last year, it was exhausting.
Everybody was trying to outboard apes, the bored apes.
There was a ton of loud parties.
I didn't get to meet as many people because everybody was trying to do like these big
loud concert parties, which are fun to some degree, but you also run into a little bit
there.
So that's frustrating.
And then I think also like to me, it's just the
accessibility of the conference itself, which we'll get to in some of the other ones as we talk
about them. The fact of the matter was I've spent probably $800 on Ubers or something to that degree
going around in rickshaws and whatever, going around the city, going to all these different
things. And it just makes it sort of like a less pleasant experience than say some of the other
ones, both the inside and outside events.
You know, there are some great speakers.
They do set some great stuff up there at the Marriott Grand Marquis.
But to me, this one is my show because I just felt like I left exhausted and drained this year, whereas I've left the first one energized.
And some of the other conferences, I had a different point of view.
So, Cap, what is your...
I feel similar.
No, similar.
This is a two-horse race for me. And my follow-up question is,
if ApeFest decouples and is not at NFT NYC,
is NFT NYC even in your circuit next year?
It probably is, just depending.
I would say I'm doing a little bit of what Outer did,
where there are some that are must-attends for me,
which we'll talk about a couple of those coming up.
But outside of that, Outer did a really good job
giving me sort of a decision tree, which is, hey, if I apply to speak, and I speak, do I go because, you know,
only so much travel I've now as bunch you mentioned earlier, like I'm working a little bit
with the Starbucks team, we've got DJ network, I've got the book I'm writing, I'm working as
chief culture officer at clubhouse archives. So I've sort of locked in what I'm doing. And I still
need to meet with people and continue to do that and grow that. But is that required for me to go to some of these conferences? Not as much. So I've sort of done this thing where if I'm doing and I still need to meet with people and continue to do that and grow that but is that required for me to go to some of these conferences not as much so I've sort of done this
thing where if I'm not speaking or moderating um outside of a handful I'll figure out whether I
truly want to go and experience it or not so NFT NYC I will probably go next year just because I
think it is like a premier event still but it might be more judicious about what I attend and
how I do things there what about you same no I'll. That said, it's going to be a wild April
and May. We were just talking, Von Fronten and I were going back and forth in the thread. I'm
bookending NFT NYC with club volleyball tournaments the weekend before and after in Chicago and
Philly. So I think my winner project might be RVDAO. If anyone wants to
take a look at that, I think it might be a positive expected value to look at some RVs
at this time if we're going to be touring the country for two months going to NFT conferences.
But no, NFT NYC is definitely third place for me. First and second is tough. I could go probably
either way. Last year, you and I both said VCon was, as far as conferences go, the best conference of the year.
We've spent a lot of time talking about speakers.
I've been to a couple NFT NYCs, but not seen a speaker there.
Whereas VCon, I felt I was missing out if I wasn't in the conference during all live sessions.
And even still, we missed out a little bit, but not feeling like the old in a hundred directions like NFT NYC.
So I think where I'm at on my second place versus first place or what I'm
most looking forward to next year,
B con is going to come in second for me solely because I I'm excited about
the, the unknown of proof of conference.
And I think there'll be similar, but different.
And in a world of, you know, that world that we like to chase asymmetric upside,
I'll go with the unknown of proof of conference
by like a nose over VCon,
but really looking forward to both.
Also, I think Indy is a great city for a conference.
I think it'll be very Minneapolis-esque
in the sense that we'll feel like
we almost take over the city.
I say that knowing there's also another big
volleyball tournament in downtown Indy that weekend, but I think it will be –
I think Indy will be perfect for VCon,
and I'm really looking forward to both.
Yeah, I'll give proof of conference a slight edge.
Not because of our special guest. I'm not biased.
I know it probably sounds like that, but proof of conference
I've been looking forward to since they announced it.
Yeah, and I would even – I would add a couple things.
I would say, just a reminder, we'll give away a degenesis pass to one person who comments down the the uh the conference that is the thing
they're most looking forward to it could be one we mentioned it could be one we miss because we're
not going to be able to like we're not going to hit on some of the some of the other ones and
I think we tipped our obviously we we have our three in here and cap tipped his hand about his
number one when he gave his number two as a given my number two is also vcon I'll spend a little more time on this than than even the number one because i know number one we're still
waiting on some stuff but i mean vcon like i don't want people to forget how um you'll innovative and
thoughtful this conference was and why i called it the best conference i've ever been to um the
vcon app right like the ticket um the way to get in with dynamic qr code the fact that it had networking
tonight tied to it from a tech perspective that was next level i didn't have to spend time hey
what you're at let me go follow you i simply scanned a qr code and got all of someone's
information the networking was next level because it was in viking stadium you were walking around
a loop there was a vendor village and it was like you were able to talk to people that you never had
before i got to meet klan and k money and, um, you know, Frankie nines and, uh, all these different people,
Nick smalls who, who, who effectively, I got big time by a 12 year old for a second. And then,
um, you know, thankfully it was, it was a misunderstanding, but that was almost terrifying.
Um, so there's a really, really good time there. The atmosphere itself. I mean, you know,
the fact that Gary is like, look, like there is like look like there's a speed there's a
there's a uh for someone like me i fidget and i like to move around a lot and sitting still is
hard because of my adhd and so to me like having cornhole and giant jenga and adirondack chairs
and a ferris wheel and things to do while i'm watching the main stage i thought was really
nice with the little green areas and the food trucks it felt more like a conference um you know cap touched on the speakers speakers were next level um felt like
I was missing something um the surprises right I mean like we got free Chipotle Rally Road is
did a sponsored show with us yesterday and I'm working with them as a partner I really fully
got into Rally Road at VCon because they did the free giveaway of the of gary's piece there so
um just really good stuff there and then the messaging and tone right i mean like right off
the bat gary got on stage and said we're gonna be kind to each other if you're afraid to go up to
people talk to them today's the day to kind of do that you're in you're amongst friends here
it's something similar again not just because he's a special guest i would say this if he wasn't like
justin made that set that same tone at the event in LA.
So for me, VCon is my number two I'm looking forward to next year
because it was the best conference I had been to last year.
Looking forward to having it in Indy.
And frankly, just thoroughly enjoyed the experience.
I left that one energized to the counterpoint of NFT NYC
where I left a little more exhausted, Cap.
You could take on the tone.
I don't think you can,
you can't put enough emphasis on that.
How impactful I think that that,
the tone of,
of that V friends weekend was set off by,
by Gary's opening talking about keynotes and,
and just the,
yeah,
there was something special.
If you were there,
you know,
I can't,
I'm struggling to really describe it well,
but I think Steve said enough on it. And I'm really excited for VCon and shout out to Gary for just creating such an environment that it's like a real life version of that image we were talking about earlier and community being more powerful than audience i know gary has a lot of a big audience and a lot of fans but more powerful is the the true community that's been built there over over several years steve tell us about proof
of conference and then we'll get this market update from the pros at mintify yeah yeah proof
of conference is my is my win um so win play show for me proof of conference win vcon place and uh
show nftnyc of ones i'm most looking forward to next year again comment purple box down below
we'll give away the genesis pass to one person who gives us the I'm most looking forward to next year. Again, comment, purple box down below. We'll give away a DeGenesis pass to one person
who gives us the conference they're looking forward to most next year.
It doesn't have to be this.
It could be South by.
It could be NFT LA.
It could be the NFT Expo in Vegas.
Close race right now with a few minutes left.
VCon's in a slight lead with a few minutes left.
Yeah, and vote in the poll as well.
But yeah, for me, the one I'm most looking forward to is proof of conference. It's something I was looking forward to from the moment I got a, proof is a lot of things that I love. I've never been to a proof event, whether official or unofficial, where I didn't have a great time where I didn't
feel like I was surrounded with my people, right? It's like, these people, they they're in it,
because they enjoy the tech, they enjoy art. Those are two things that I'm really, really
excited about. And so to me, you know, that's something that is, you know, I think you can't
quantify, I expect the speakers to be high quality caliber.
You know, it sounds like they're going less speakers, more quality, which I think is good.
Having an art section, which is really thoughtful.
Going to be in L.A., which will be fun.
So I think that there's a lot of things to like about proof of conference.
And frankly, like I said, like for me, this boils down to the fact that I've been to multiple official and unofficial proof meetups and I've never had a bad time. I've never had a
time where I thought that, um, I wasn't amongst people amongst friends, uh, talking and the way,
especially the LA event after future proof to walk around that event and just have conversations
with people. It was, you know know the amount of people i met and
talked to there who just tap on the shoulder hey how's it going and have a discussion was
so different and even the ladybirds event that shira lazar had organized organized night before
that everyone was invited to and it's like that was great so everything i go to has been great
for that so i have high expectations um and just looking forward to honestly i learn a lot um
about art but um you know before we go to the Mark It Up by Mintify,
Popham as co-host Cap, I want to go down to Outer on the conferencing
because I know she goes to a lot of conferences and has a lot of thoughts real quick.
And then we'll finish it out.
I just wanted to, thanks for inviting me back up, Steve.
I appreciate it.
I'm not taking any of this personally. This is hilarious. I wanted to defend NFT NYC a little bit just because I'm going to all three of those events that are on the poll. I'm excited about all of them. I think they're going to be amazing.
I just want to say that those guys are incredibly empowering to speakers and really like inclusive.
They allowed me to bring my kid with me and like just treated him amazingly, amazingly well and gave him a VIP pass.
Like you could just yeah, it's just such an empowering, empowering group of people that are running that.
And then if you want to get your start in speaking, I know that the thought is that they have way too many speakers.
But part of that is have way too many speakers, but part
of that is their inclusivity of speakers. And so having spoken at those events helps you get into
bigger events as well, because you kind of establish yourself as a speaker. So I think that
it's definitely a good place to start to, you know, consider applying to something like NFT NYC and
NFT London, just because they are quite inclusive of speakers. And that might get your foot in the
door if that's something you're looking to build.
Thanks for having me back and giving me the time to add.
No, I appreciate you.
And Cap, you're round out.
So you had proof of conference as your number one as well.
Why?
What puts it there for you?
Yeah, I mean, I think it'll be an environment that'll be conducive, similar.
I don't want to say similar to VCon and like pigeonhole them into like the
same type of conference,
but I I'm looking forward to it as I feel it'll be one where the content will
be great.
The speakers will be great.
My understanding is it's going to be one stage instead of spreading out and
being forced to miss miss speakers or miss sessions.
And then the other thing why I'm so bullish on,
on proof of conferences, you conference is similar as we were talking
about VCon
and that environment,
that community,
that real community
that Gary has created.
My experience
with everyone I've interacted
with proof of proof so far
has been the same.
It's on the,
I mean, actually,
that's actually what made
VCon so special last year
was a couple of the unofficial
proof of conference events that
we like Drew Barman and a few other proof members put on that just hosted. And some of those
connections we were talking about were the beginnings of great relationships that we've
built on to and become friends with today. So I just have had a lot of great interactions with
several members in that community. And I think it'll be one where a lot of ideas business development uh real beneficial networking will um it will just
happen by default the other one we saw a lot of mentions on that make our list i've never been
but i would love to make the trip because i'm a huge fan of denver eath denver got a lot of
shout outs i'd love to uh i'd love to find a way to make that one just because i'm a huge fan of Denver. Eat Denver got a lot of shout outs. I'd love to find a way to make that one just because I'm a huge fan of Denver.
Great list.
Appreciate everyone participating.
There might be a few minutes left on the pool.
But before we shift gears to our special guest, I want to get a quick market update here from
the pros over at Mintify.
The market update, it is linked up above as well as in the comments down below.
And on that, let's turn it over to Mintify here for a quick market update, it is linked up above as well as in the comments down below. And on that, let's turn it over to Minify here for a quick market update.
Thank you very much and good morning.
How are you doing?
Doing great.
How are you?
Doing great, GM.
Doing very well.
All right, let's check this out. hour market volume 11.69 mil highest last sale crypto punk 72 61 for 285 e top three collections
based on volume valhalla just under 3k e traded at a 0.744 e floor price basey 1.87 k e traded
for price 61 e and cellmates still doing pretty good after their mint the other
day 420 ETH traded for price of 0.74 ETH top gainers board UTS AC on here again up 200%
and sell mates up 40% top losers Valhalla 85 down. Now that's because it opened up really high when it first
got onto the market and taken shots. That was a free mint yesterday, 45% down. Noteworthy market
updates. El Salvador submits a digital assets issuance bill for Bitcoin volcano bonds. And
New York signs a two-year crypto mining moratorium into law with the global crypto market
cap at 807 bill btc dominance 38.58 bitcoin open interest 6.45 bill fear and greed at 22 with
bitcoin coming down at 16 400 ethereum at 11. Both of them up around 4-5% on the day.
Getting a nice relief rally.
And the S&P at 4,017.
Up just about 0.2%.
Thank you very much.
Awesome update.
Thanks for that.
Was that Punk sale?
Was that a V1 Punk too?
Is it the one I'm thinking of?
Might have been a V1.
Which is wild.
I don't believe so.
No, I think it was just, I think it was the, well, yeah, yeah,
the original, you know.
Yeah, I was going to say, I want to go to, I want to make sure,
well, two things.
I picked a winner, so I'll announce that in a second to the conferences.
So thanks for everyone who commented down.
A lot of V-Cons, a lot of uh a marfa shout out from drew barman so appreciate always appreciate
drew the barman my guy um it's like a brag from drew if you're gonna party at an nft conference
you party at drew's cop drew's uh events by the way that man knows how to throw a classy but fun
spirits event and i have definitely um you know i've definitely had
had some moments at those i would say where people would say that i'm not uh following my own advice
because drew has my great spirits my favorite part of ryan's show yesterday where he hosted
tim ferris great show big fan of tim if you missed ryan's daily dish yesterday that's worth going
back and listening to recording extremely excited about tim's upcoming project i wasn't i'll be honest i wasn't so sure about it when i heard the name behind it but he's uh i think i
think this is going to be a this one will cook but uh not financial advice by any means uh the um
my favorite part though of the space yesterday was when tim was describing drew talking about his
great beard great hat hat, good jacket.
I was like, there's only one person in the Web3 space
that Tim could be describing now, and he was on point.
Yeah. No, Drew the Barman is one of my faves.
I mean, the experience at VCon was next level,
where it was just like it's classy,
but allows you to kind of let loose a little bit.
And again, never forget all the different funds from the
rooftop to uh the story that i keep exaggerating the fish gets bigger in that story by the day
where i i saved morgan's one of one from gabe weiss um to uh you know just drew like looking
down and we we walked down at one point he's just like you guys smell like dope and we're like oh
no um so just a big fan of uh drew the barman and what he throws and uh
again his son robbie's always along for the ride which is also awesome uh puts him to work and uh
really literally just a classy guy all around but um two things i want to go uh before we
i wanted to hit like first of all the el salvador volcano piece there i don't want to breeze over
that but that potentially is a conversation for tomorrow or Thanksgiving maybe when we, or on Thanksgiving
or maybe the next day when we have a little more time
because that was a hell of a story.
So I'm glad Mintify put that on my radar. I put a
tickler in that for later.
I did want, General Pudge, I saw your hand go up when we were
doing conferences. So before we shift gears,
I wanted to go to you before I pick a winner because
I didn't want you to not be heard this morning because I know you
came up, put your hand up, you're patient.
General Pudge, do you have thoughts on the conference thing?
Oh, GM, yeah, I appreciate you guys bringing me up again today.
Yeah, I just had some quick thoughts.
On VCon, I actually brought a friend who wasn't kind of dabbled, wasn't really into NFTs.
And I thought, you know, it was such a great job.
You know, it was such a great job. And from from my opinion and perspective, a conference that wasn't so like narrowed or limited to where like you can feel I feel like a lot more comfortable to bring someone to kind of onboard, yeah, like I didn't really know too much about NFTs before the conference.
And I thought that was like a really cool point that went into Gary's perception of what he wants the conference to be, as well as it being year one.
It felt like year three or five, honestly, like with how we just I think you guys touched on all the points.
So I don't want to talk about it too much, but just how well structured and put together it was um I was quite impressed and
then the only other thing was um I don't really know I guess it still goes under conferences but
um I feel like Art Basel if you're gonna like you know talk about trying to like bring a friend or
onboard a friend to something I felt as though like Art Basel from a pure like cultural and
like fun perspective is that and as well as like well as NFT NYC, are really good ones to bring in friends that might not be into NFTs yet, I think, and not have to be intimidated, I guess.
This is a great point, because I'm debating, I'm on the fence, whether to bring my 20-year-old daughter down to Art Basel.
She's not going to enjoy the nerd out sessions.
She's actually an artist.
I feel like I need a sponsor.
Am I overthinking it?
I feel like I need to find a friend that's her age
so she's not hanging out with Steve and I for three days
because that would drive her nuts.
Am I overthinking this?
I think if she brought a friend, it'd be a lot of fun
and still get a lot of value from it.
I feel like that's probably one of the best ones to go to.
Keep her away from Threadguy.
With that said, no, I wanted to, I wanted to, I just, I kid actually.
Actually, I would be, Threadguy is a wonderful human being.
That's obviously a joke just because with hair like that, he's got to be, he's, you know,
he should have to register his hair as a weapon, think just by how how good looking that kid is but um but no like
general pudge like great point uh because you might want to clip that later oh well what have
i that's gonna be i feel like the clips have just become troll steve um general pudge just before we
move on to our guests like i want to make sure i put a emphasis in that point that you just made, because that's something I hadn't thought about, which I think is alpha. This is why I'm so glad we have such a great, like, thoughtful, you know, group of community. When Ryan talks about community, it's not, they're not our audience. They're not people who come here every day. The people who comment, the people who come up, like, this is a community to me and general pudge like came on the other day provided amazing points about pudgy penguins that we then were like wow like we do need to be more thoughtful about bringing them up because
he's right um you know and he's he's become somebody who now we're happy to have on again
i'm glad we went to you for that reason because like what a great piece of alpha and i didn't
think about it but like last year before i left nestle one of the things i was going to do was
actually bring this person emily who i was mentoring at Nestle, to VCon and basically be like, let's expense a ticket
because I thought that she could learn about Web3 as well as see some of the speakers.
And it would have been the right move if I was still there at the time.
I obviously left my job before that point to go full-time Web3.
But what a really good piece of alpha of best conferences to onboard a friend
or to get a friend to understand what NFTs are about.
And to me, it's not necessarily NFT NYC, even though there are big parties.
VCon, where there's great speakers, you walk around the vendor village,
you see sort of the collectibles that are around.
There was Rally Road, there was the sort of like, you know,
VFriends, ceramics that were out.
A lot of really good stuff to bring a friend to and some events.
And Art Basel, I've never been to.
I'm going for the first time on this year.
So that'll be interesting.
I've never even been to Miami.
So that'll be fun for me.
But like, you know, I think that's a great piece of alpha to think.
Where would you bring your friends?
I'm going to announce the winner.
Then we'll go.
I know punter's hand went up.
Then we'll shift gears to Justin.
But I'm the winner of the DeGenesis Pass,
and I'm actually really happy about this one.
We're going with Riz Brian.
I don't know if Riz is still in the room,
but Riz has been a friend of the show for a long time.
And, you know, he mentioned NFTLA,
or NFTLA to both see what I learned from NFTNYC,
and I can't wait to see what Cool Cats do.
It being Klon's backyard, it better rock.
I'm going to go with Riz
because Riz Bryan has been a,
you know, again, friend of the show for a long time.
I don't believe he has a Degenesis Pass.
I know he's a strong community member,
so I think he'll be a great addition to the War Room
and looked through all the comments, though,
and kind of went through randomly,
but then, you know, picked based on,
I thought it was a good point of thinking about the cool cats activation i know riz has always
been a good cool cat supporter and is always there to defend the wall whenever we're talking cool
cats so shout out riz i will uh send you a dm if you're not in the room and we'll get you that
genesis pass uh from our stash um puncher i'll let you get kind of the last word on this and
then we'll shift gears to our interview big big push at the end proof of conference took it down
big big push down the home stretch Proof of conference took it down.
Big, big push down the homestretch to win the race.
Not just Steve and I's vote, but the community at large.
41% VCon second, 34%.
NFT NYC coming in third at 23%. Again, thanks to Zedron for sponsoring this segment.
Punter.
Yeah, just real quick.
Not on the conference, but I can't wait to hear from Justin.
And since you guys are so busy
always running the show, about halfway through, I think it's a good idea just if people can retweet
the space, let's pack up the room for Justin. I find a lot of times these days, I don't really
check the top for Twitter spaces, but stuff that pops into my feed, I will head directly into that
room if the title sort of fits with what I want to check out. So just, you know, vying for my co-host, you know, you know,
honorary co-host, you know, job.
I just wanted to do that since you guys were too busy to maybe say that.
Anyway, I'll shut up now.
Yeah, we can do a better job shilling our own room.
We do a terrible job telling people to like retweet, share and stuff like that.
So it's a good look, Punter.
We were definitely we're still smash that like button, share the link.
So hit that bell for notifications. When I got a new video coming out.
I hear it like all day with my kids on their iPads.
They're off school today.
So I'm going to just hear TikTok videos and TikTok videos that are being played on YouTube,
followed by like smash that subscribe button.
So, but no, thank you, Punter, for the love there and the overview.
And thanks to everyone who participated.
Fun morning.
I know we didn't get as deep into the news of the day as we usually do,
but sometimes it's fun to have a kind of a crazy show like this.
Thanks again to Zed Run for sponsoring that.
Check out Zed Run.
Cap has a very serious stable that he has like 7,000 horses in.
I've got more of a shenanigans stable where my kids name my horses with me.
We take turns.
You can guess that midnight taco bell is one that my, my wife and with me. We take turns. You can guess that Midnight Taco Bell
is one that my wife and I named. But at the same time, Cotton Friggin Candy, my daughter named.
Gossamer, my son named based on the big Looney Tunes character that's red because we had a red
horse. So have a lot of fun on Zed. Breeding horses, hanging out with the kids, racing.
It's something that over Thanksgiving, I can show my family and friends. I can put it on the TV.
It's beautiful.
It's gorgeous.
And I'm like, this is NFTs.
And they're like, oh, that's cool.
So you own these horses.
So great way to onboard.
So shout out to Zed.
Appreciate that.
And with that, we'll shift gears to our special guest.
Super excited from this one.
This is somebody who I personally look up to quite a bit in the space.
I find myself associating with Justin.
His positive attitude, his genuine excitement over things like when he read the lore at Future Proof Conference.
He's from the Moonbirds team, the artist, the man, the myth, the legend.
Justin Mizell, how are you doing on this fine, fine morning?
Super early for you.
We appreciate you joining us.
GM, GM. Yeah, it is. It's an early time here uh let's see it's like 44 degrees outside but everybody in my house was sleeping and i have three children so if i were to wake them up i
would incur the wrath of everybody in this household so i went outside but i forgot to
grab socks uh and a jacket so it's a little chilly so'm just keeping warm. I'm just kind of moving around a
little bit. Although I do have to tell you, I immediately thought with that smash that like
button, I just have to relate here because it's big in our household right now. Like my son loves
watching like streamers and my daughter watches, you know, YouTube videos that do it as well.
And the other day I was sitting next to my son on the couch and he's just like playing a video game
and kind of like muttering under his breath, own little things he's pretending like he's streaming and i just he's
just next to me and i just hear smash that like button and subscribe and i was just like oh no
no no no no no anyhow that just it reminded me of that moment and i i hated that moment for me
no that's just in this opening are we going to be getting i'm feeling like we might be getting some
if you're outside and without socks on in the in, are we getting like a Wim Hof breathing and ice session at Proof of Conference?
I'm definitely working through breathing exercises.
I'm moderating my body, my core temperature.
It's going very poorly.
It is.
But again, it's better than the alternative.
That's amazing.
I love that. No, it's funny hearing the alternative. That's amazing. I love that.
No, it's funny hearing about your son doing that.
My son is eight.
He recently started going to my computer and asking if he can record YouTube videos because he wants to be a YouTuber.
And so it's funny.
But you know what?
Hey, if he's willing to work at it and do it, he rocks the video games.
He works on that.
It's awesome.
Do what you love, kid.
Although hearing him potentially wanting to be a streamer is somewhat terrifying as well but
well it's true everything is nuanced so it's like like at the end of the day i know i've heard
somebody talk about that where it's like you know the future is all these kids who want to be like
influencers or streamers and and we should be worried about that and it's just i don't know
like to me i think absolutely there's pause for uh for for thinking about that. And it's just, I don't know, like to me, I think absolutely there's pause for thinking about,
you know, hey, what's the intent?
What's going on here?
But it's like a lot of these people are humans
and they're creating content
and hopefully they're doing it in a way
that sheds a light and dark spots.
Hopefully they're doing incredible things
and hopefully they're being kind and generous in that space.
And hopefully, you know, they use that voice
to be able to do really great things.
So it's like, ultimately, you know, I look at my son,
he's a baller human, he's a kind fella. And if he wants to utilize his voice
and do something with it, I'd be, I'd be proud to stand beside him to do that. I just, uh, you know,
I'm pretty bad at the show part too. So I hope he's not sitting for a drink somewhere telling
people to smash that like button. That's for sure. Amazing. Amazing. Well, Justin, I want to get into
your background a little bit for people who don't know you because you have a background prior to proof that's equally impressive.
And I'd love for you to talk about your background as an artist and everything else as you as you let up into proof before we sort of get into the new stuff that you're talking about today.
in another past lifetime, I was a youth pastor, which probably gets through in my cheesy energy
and the terrible hair that I have in my lack of fashion sense. But essentially, I've always
kind of done art in one way or another. And it's been sort of multiple kinds of expressions through
that thing. So growing up very much into tactile very much into tactile art and drawing, you know, with hands, we were very big, my brother and I, into creating tabletop games,
mostly because Dungeons and Dragons is a really expensive thing to get into. And of course,
with, you know, with the whole church upper, you weren't really allowed to play Dungeons and
Dragons because it was from the devil. And so we did a lot of, you know, building our own tabletop
games, creating monster manuals and leveling systems and all kinds of mechanics and stuff
like that. As I got older, you got more involved in learning about design as a tool
and an actual expertise. So I got my actual start in print design working at a magazine
where I learned about layout. And that was my first time learning about illustration,
typography, and all that kind of stuff. So that kind of changed from there,
going into more of kind of the digital space and learning more about web design.
And so I did what you do when you graduate college and you're full of energy and your confidence.
And I started a business with a group of friends that failed spectacularly within three months.
And it was really bad. We were like an app company that built a few apps. There's this one
called Autostash, you know, cutting edge tech where you could put a mustache on your face.
And somehow we thought that was enough of a business plan to go forward and build a whole
company around. So once that failed, went back to really trying to figure out for me, what is
something that I can learn how to do, that I can do by myself. And for me, that was sort of like,
hey, I can learn digital illustration, which is something that I kind of toyed with, you know, in the
magazine world. So I just kind of recognize that, you know, I'm not classically trained in design.
I'm not I'm not a designer with the background. I don't have anybody in my family who's done this
before. And I don't know any designers. And so what I did was, you know, I just I just started
every day I'd wake up and I'd illustrate and I'd work on some things.
And I wasn't a really, I'm not an excellent hand drawer.
I mean, I know it sounded like when we were making tabletop games, I was good.
They're not good.
My people look really bad.
They look like a cross kind of between a horse and a wet blanket.
And so I'm not very good at a lot of, you know, the hand drawing.
And so getting into digital illustration was very difficult for me.
But I started doing a lot of, you know, grid based illustrations, and really constrained and
refined kind of pieces of like challenging myself, how simple I could make things. And so
at the time, there was a website called dribble. And I it is still around. I mean, I say like,
it's gone. It's not this isn't like a, you know, a postpartum on it. But I got into dribble,
I just responded to somebody on Twitter who said they had an invite was an invite network,
got into that. And so every single day, pretty much, I just posted illustrations. And I just kept working on trying to get better, trying to make a name for myself, trying to meet some people. And sure enough, I was able to connect with people in the space. And that was really kind of my first taste of kind of a community, an art community know, was excited about the work that we were doing. We would share tips and tricks. We would kind of talk about what we were building, why we were building it the way that we're doing, giving feedback. And at the time, you know, Dribbble was
really a big feedback mechanism. I got in with, you know, a small group of people that I really
trusted. And we just kind of went back and forth. Every time that I posted something, I would just
kind of position it as, oh, I'm working on this for a client.
I can't really say who it is.
And of course, at the time, I didn't really have any clients.
It was just me trying to act like I knew what I was doing.
And that actually turned into the opportunity.
Well, first off, my first paid gig was Red Lobster.
I'll never forget.
I made a great infographic.
It wasn't great with a little grill and steak and shrimp on that. I'm not a big seafood eater and
shrimp really kind of horrifies me. It's a very large insect and I don't eat them. But that was
my first paid gig. And then from there, my next client that came in was actually PayPal, asking
if I was interested in building an illustration system for them,
which of course, once again, I was like, oh yeah, illustration systems, absolutely,
totally down with that. Yeah, yeah, I've done that. And so I just said yes, went over, spent,
I think it was about a year and a half working on PayPal's original illustration system. So
So if you check out on PayPal today, you'll probably see one of my little pieces on there.
if you check out on PayPal today, you'll probably see one of my little pieces on there.
And then after that, you know, I really just kind of did the freelance illustration game.
I kind of bounced around kind of the Bay Area with different companies working with them.
So, you know, my contact from PayPal left and went to Twitter.
So then I was able to work on Twitter's illustration system headed up by Samantha Warren, was kind of leading a lot of that stuff at the time.
Then I started working on kind of Google's illustration team. And so
really just kind of working in a lot of different companies, GitHub, understanding about how
illustration systems could be built, how we thought about them, how we scaled them,
how other artists could pick up the work that we were doing, remix it, kind of do something
different with it. And so I really loved that part of it. And then from there, got into product design when I started doing some work at a small startup called Code School.
Worked there for a little while, eventually ended up leading up kind of their product design branch.
And then we were acquired by a company out in Salt Lake City called Pluralsight.
Went out to Pluralsight, spent a few years out there, ended up kind of running the product design
org that was out there, which is kind of a cross-disciplinary product design, product management, and engineering kind of department.
And then after that, you know, kind of we went public, kind of was done with kind of the big company thing for a bit.
And that's when Kevin and I just started jamming on some things.
We met up and we started working through some projects, originally Modern Finance, into the proof podcast uh which turned into obviously the collective and moon birds and
odysseys and the upcoming mythic stuff so it's been a journey that's that's awesome and amazing
background to hear and i think a couple lessons that i think people could take from you is one
going above your comfort zone but you know because you talked about a couple areas that you went out
of your comfort zone and two um you know like a lot of people maybe who didn't know your full background I mean I learned things
in there as you were talking I knew some of that but like hearing that it's like a lot of people
see that and they think like oh this guy like he's an overnight success or he's so lucky or this
other stuff and there's a lot of work that went into that and a lot of self-discovery even from
feeling like maybe you weren't part of it then finding that community and moving on and I was
wondering if you could talk more about like sort of like that part of the journey where
it's like, um, the leaving your comfort zone part and then ultimately like taking that risk.
Cause it seems like that's something that you mentioned a few times where you're like,
I'm going to say yes, and I'm going to figure it out. And if that's always sort of been a part of
your DNA. Yeah. I mean, I think I've kind of just like, um, you know, I kind of alluded to this and I don't want to get too spiritual about this kind of stuff. But it's, you know, kind of being, I guess, in a position where you're in like, you know, a leadership position working at like a church or whatever it is, and eventually leaving that position. I think a lot of that was was really an understanding and reckoning with the fact that there's a lot of unknown in me. There are a lot of parts that I can't fully grok. And when you spend so much of your life saying that you have the answers to everything, you don't leave room for a lot of doubt and you
don't leave room for a lot of openness. And so I think post that season of my life, I really wanted
to take the time to discover a bit more about myself, but ultimately to recognize that I don't
know everything and I don't have the answers to everything. And sometimes you just need to try some things on. And sometimes what you try on is a new worldview. Sometimes what you try on is a brand new experience. Sometimes what you try on is really, you know, kind of how you work with a new group of people.
say is there was a season of my life where I absolutely kind of pulled back in a negative way.
You know, as I mentioned, I made the transition from failing at a company and then becoming an
illustrator and really wanting to wake up every day and every night and kind of work on that.
And what I really saw in myself in that season of life was that was not a headspace that was
positive. That was really born out of a headspace that was really negative of me just saying, I don't ever want to have to depend on anybody again. I don't want to have to
work with anybody and really see what they need. I'm just going to be a freelance illustrator.
I'm just going to do this for myself and I'm going to build the kingdom of me and I'm going
to figure out how to do it. And I know I can do it. I'm just going to work hard. I've always worked
hard. I can do it again. And so it kind of felt like rebuilding from nothing. But I think that in that process, I really lost a lot of myself, I lost a lot of what brought me joy,
which is in working with other people, which is which is in bringing their ideas to life.
And I think that, you know, for me, one of the biggest learnings, the biggest findings that I've
had, and, you know, I think with proof, it's been it's been so evident for me, is like, I love
getting to do the work, I still love design, I love rolling up my sleeves, I think with proof, it's been so evident for me, is like, I love getting to do the work.
I still love design. I love rolling up my sleeves. I love laying down some pixels. I loved
illustrating the moonbirds. That is all so much fun. But outside of that, what I really, truly
love and resonate with is building teams and allowing their visions to influence not just
the culture, but the final work that we're doing to be a part of this really big story. And so, you know, for me, when it comes to mythics and working with, you know, a bigger team
now and watching all of us kind of come together at the table, like sometimes I just sit back and
I'm just so grateful that, you know, yeah, I'm not doing, I'm not laying every pixel. I get to do
some of the pixels and so do other people. We share this together, but like, man, there's just
something so powerful about coming together with people that you trust, that you're excited about uh that you identify with and really being able to build something and so
you know in running uh kind of you know the product design even at plural site which is a
much larger company um you know there was still a lot to love and and that to me was really in
building teams uh and empowering them to be able to make great decisions and really trusting the
people uh to be able to make great decisions why you hire them that's why you hire people and why you have a high standard of the people that you work
with and you get to mentor and you get to teach and they do the same for you.
And so I think that's probably been a bigger finding for me is just like, if it's just
Justin creating for the kingdom of Justin, that is absolutely exhausting.
And I'm also probably not very good at it.
I feel things a little too deeply to do that.
No, that's a great insight. And I think, um, well, first of all, like,
before I go to my next question, I have to just send you flowers and thank you for
even the modern finance work you did with Kevin. First of all, I love the design and all that you
released some, some, some previous designs on it, like, which is really fun. I'll have to find that
tweet and pin it because that was such a fun one when you're like, Hey, here's some designs that I,
you know, consider for modern finance.
But even in my journey, modern finance,
I actually remember where I was walking my dog
when I was listening to it
when the Snowfro interview happened.
And that was the first ETH NFT I ever minted
was a Galaxis because of that.
So you played a part in my personal journey
that sent me off on a rabbit hole.
It literally changed my life.
And I'm like, wait, I create this thing on's in that's incredible um so i appreciate that from you and from from the work
you did there and the design work is awesome um you know something i want to dig in on too is you
talked about creating for a community and something that i'm curious about is you know when i had the
chance to meet you in la i the first thing i said after future proof was the mythics what you're
doing with
oddities it reminded me almost of like an old school Nintendo game when you were showing the
imagery and you were reading the lore like that I could see it as like words on the bottom of a
screen in an old school Nintendo game what was sort of your inspiration as you were creating the
lore and mythics and oddities as you sort of pivoted into that world because I think that
that's something that a lot of people like myself myself as a nerd, as a Dungeons & Dragons video game nerd,
I was geeking out as you were reading through that.
So what kind of inspired you all to move that direction?
Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, story and, I mean, I love D&D.
I'm a big, big D&D fan.
I made up for all the D&D I didn't get to play as a kid,
as a grown-ass adult, and that's just kind of part of me now.
But I love the creativity that comes with it.
I love the idea of being able to build a world.
And it kind of harkens back to those old days of my brother and I building in Florida as kids.
There's something so powerful about being able to tell a story and to know that you get to own it.
And you get to have these wild ideas i mean i
remember my brother and i building with legos for hours and creating stories i mean they did not make
sense i remember i had this this big story that we used to always go back and like retell sequels
to where like the sun has burned out a long time ago and people don't like see anymore in the same
way and we used to keep going back and telling the story now i know scientifically it's not possible
if the sun explodes it's going to be huge and it's going to eat up all the planets, whatever.
But at the time, it was such a fun thing to be able to just build something and to feel like you
got to, you know, have a hand in that narrative. And I think D&D and other kinds of role-playing
experiences give people a chance to be able to do that, hopefully in a safe environment where
they feel like they can get a little bit weird, they can get a little crazy. And I think like
one of the things that the current, you know, the current cultural zeitgeist, especially with D&D hitting
the mainstream, is done is it's made it okay to dream and get a little crazy and get a little
weird and recognize that these proclivities you may have where somebody may have said,
okay, well, that's just a silly thing and you can't aspire to that kind of greatness.
Only so many people make films. We found other mediums. We found routes of self-publishing for stories, for, you know,
for shorts. All kinds of short films have come out, you know, kind of with the prolific rise of
just, you know, streaming. And it's like we said before, like, you know, streamers in and of
themselves or a storyteller, it doesn't have to all be bad. There's self-publishing and it's done
some really, really powerful things for people to be able to get into some new spaces they never have been able to get before. When you just have one centralized
repository of where all of the talent comes from and you centralize that, there's a lot of
gatekeeping that goes into it. You can't make a film yet because you're not part of this guild
or you haven't gone through this thing. You haven't learned these kinds of things. I think
about that with art where it's like this idea of like, oh, well, like, you know, AI art, it's AI art, but you weren't classically trained, you're not going
to understand these things. And being somebody who's not classically trained either in art or
design, I think that there are alternative paths. And that doesn't mean that you disrespect what
came before you. It doesn't mean that you ignore the fact that there are things that you could
learn from and you could dig into. But I think that there is this incredible space to be able to bring people into this big story.
And so when we created Moonbirds, the entire intent and purpose of it was to create a very
constrained collection. We wanted enough diversity, but we didn't want it so diverse. We wanted a good
trait pool that had some different kinds of things a part of it. But we actually pulled back and got
rid of more traits than we ended up keeping because what we really wanted to lean into was a simple sort of
iconic nature when it came into this. Originally, we had about twice as many pixels in the collection.
We kept reducing to get smaller and smaller to see what we could refine this collection into to make
sure that it scaled really well as a PFP. It read in all these kinds of different mediums.
But part of what came at the cost of making a lot of these decisions and, you know, sanding off all the rough edges of Moonbirds
was having, you know, maybe a collection that didn't really rub anybody the wrong way in terms
of like, oh, this is a little too wild. It was, you know, it was really constrained. And so when
it came to mythics and sort of how we kind of build out the story, you know, in a post-Oddities
world, when we released it, we worked with Grumplin on that collection there was just a story that really
seemed to be unfolding for us um you know when we created oddities we didn't want to create another
pfp the idea was to create a companion character for your moonbird and now suddenly you have two
variables in this mix you have this character central character you have this companion and
now it's like hey well should this just exist or should there be a story and understanding of where these things come from?
And so knowing how we were going to walk this into kind of the mythics experience, it left an incredible amount of room for storytelling, which is something that I've really loved.
You'll see I have a project on Salonika called Grim Syndicate.
They're listening here on this one.
Grim Syndicate was sort of like my first foray into NFTs.
And it's very much a story focused project.
And that really gave me a chance to work with my brother again, which is super incredible.
And we kind of wrote the story together.
And so I just, I feel like getting to bring something like story into this and hopefully being able to use incredibly talented people.
I mean, Colin and Luke, my artists that I'm working with Mythics
on, like they are such incredible visual storytellers, but also, you know, Luke coming
from the background of traditional gaming and working kind of in the LucasArts side of the
world and Colin kind of coming from that film background, doing a lot of work, you know, kind
of with the Disney side of the world. They bring so much expertise and so much thoughtfulness to
their design and their creation. And I think, you know, we're able to really lean into these traits, not just being, well, let's put a hat on.
Instead, it's more like, hey, like, this is a hat, and this is how it should look. And maybe
there's a creature that lives inside of it. And this is how it kind of maps to the universe.
And so mythics are these, you know, these spirit guides. And so they exist outside of time. And so
it's all of these really interesting mechanics that now we're able to sort of bring into it
and really kind of threading the needle to say,
maybe not everybody needs to understand
every piece of the story all at once.
Not everybody's here expressly for that.
But I look to games like From Software
has these games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne.
And I think they do such a great job
of not hitting you over the head with story,
but allowing those bits of story to be seated in very specific moments of it that are really critical if you want to
understand some of those things. And so I think when it comes to mythics, I was really surprised
how much people wanted more storytelling. I thought that I was going out on a limb, it'd be a little
bit strange. But we are looking for more opportunities to do more of that, potentially
in a far more understandable fashion. We've kicked the tires on doing an actual Dungeons and Dragons
format, like a one-shot, which would just be a couple episodes that would
really tell more of the story uh behind you know mythics and oddities and moonbirds and how they
all kind of relate while having a good time and rolling some characters i don't know about you
but justin got me ready to run through a brick wall with the pushing ted talk oh i was yeah
absolutely and i was even going to say like i, I mean, I was going to come off
and be like, please, please do that.
Because what I want to flag for people who are listening to,
and I know there's a lot of fans, obviously, of Moonbirds and Oddities
and the whole proof ecosystem, which, you know, we have been here since Mint,
is the one thing that matters to me is,
I think you said something in there where you're like,
everybody may not care or know about the lore. But the thing is, I think you said something in there where you're like, everybody may not care or know about the lore.
But the thing is, I think it's important to note, there's high effort, there's intentionality, and there's discussion on every piece.
And to me, that's sort of what art and what a lot of these worlds are about when you know that somebody deeply cares about what they're presenting is that you actually are thinking through why this hat goes on this mythic and why this,
why this, you know, moon bird will look this way and what we're going to do here.
And I think that that's something that I think can't be underrated is the high effort intentionality behind things.
And one of the reasons that I'm so excited about it.
With that said, I'm curious because obviously you're putting a lot of effort towards it.
You've brought this whole community together.
And I think one of the things I'm always curious to hear from,
from founders and from people who are doing, you know,
really great things in the space is that what is something that maybe is
unexpected that came after you sort of, you know,
got involved with proof and moon birds and we're working on all this,
like what's something that you maybe didn't expect that came out or
something that was like a pleasant surprise?
That's a, Ooh, that's a really good question. Ah, you know, when we started Proof, you know,
and we did the collective, we were really focused on sort of like, how do we get people access to
art and artists and creators and sort of kind of build up community and think about what this sort
of looks like. And so starting with 1000 people was obviously a much easier lift to really kind
of understand how to do this. And the identity felt much easier to carve out here, you know,
whether it's like doing collections and doing drops and thinking about curating access to a
lot of these things. I will say, you know, when it came to Moonbirds and really growing to a 10,000
community, and this is something that we've heard from a lot of people too, it's like,
how do you clearly state intent and purpose within a community and what you're building
and what this looks like and ensuring that what this isn't just is it isn't just like,
hey, you jump in, now we're just going to make sure to airdrop you every six weeks. And that's
how we're going to keep this thing running. We're just going to keep kind of baiting along there
and continuing to kind of seed and make sure you get things that you can offload elsewhere.
Like having to be really thoughtful about, you know, how do you essentially think about the
business and really the community side of it and the art side of it and ensure that, you know,
what we're putting out there, we're able to do it with like a lot of conviction around this thing
as it scales,
as time goes on. How is this going to read? How's it going to sit? The last thing we want to do is
just take something, throw it out there and just watch it crumble under there because everybody's
just kind of dumping and getting some quick exit liquidity on something like that. So there's a
lot of variables that I think we had to really put into play to really ensure that when we talk
about building and when we think about sort of building this community, you know, we really do want to build for the long term. And it always
felt like community at, you know, 10,000, it was daunting. It was super daunting to try and build
a community that big. But I will say one of the things that has been a huge surprise for me
is really just the kinds of people that have showed up that really espouse a lot of those
values that really have been kind and caring and generous and have wanted to be able to link arms
with other people and meet them. I mean, Steve, I know you mentioned going to proof events and
really just sort of like how warm and intentional those spaces feel. And I've kind of felt the same
thing where it's like, you know, I didn't have the luxury of having a big collection before a lot of my work in the space.
And so, you know, just getting in, I didn't have a lot of context into what each one felt like.
But at the same time, you know, there's always this kind of fear that it's like you get a bunch of Anons in a room who don't know each other, don't have any connection point.
Aside from, you know, wanting to watch something grow, you know, what is the dynamic really going to look like? And I think what's been incredible is really to see sort of like the self-governing a lot of the community is able to do in espousing their own ideals that they align with and really living out those values, being kind and generous, not gatekeeping, hopefully within the community, and hopefully really just being able to be a positive light in those spaces.
really just being able to be a positive light in those spaces. I have just been completely blown
away at what it's like to be in this place. And it's like, you know, it's a good reminder like
that I'm Justin and I'm flawed and I'm insecure at times. And I say the wrong things pretty damn
often. But man, it has been amazing to lead into activators within our own community to be able to
lead out on some of these things and really draw the very best in everyone there, us included.
So that's just been a real treat to be a part of.
Yeah, and the way you've built it up, I think, has been noticeable for people who are self-selecting
into that community.
I mean, just the fact that you all take feedback, you adjust on the fly, you're willing to go
hand up if you make a mistake, you're willing to pivot based on community feedback which i think is to me one of the hallmarks of web 3 that gets
lost is that you got you're you're in touch enough with the community that you can sort of pivot on a
dime pretty well and have done so in the past to make sure that everyone feels whole so that's
something i know we appreciate about you and um i guess one more question before we get into sort
of the news of the day because one of the things i I raved about was was future proof when when y'all did that, you know,
obviously, the community preview was was really cool. And that was a good adjustment based on
some feedback you got, which I think was really well received by the community. But then future
proof itself, you know, it was it was something that, you know, I hear terms like six months,
12 months, 18 months, so you're clearly thinking about the future. You're almost reporting out to some ways like a company that would report to,
you know, this isn't like saying these are, you know, securities or anything,
but like it's almost like a shareholder report,
but it's like a community report that you do regularly.
What was sort of in your decision?
Because not a lot, a lot of NFT communities,
they hold things close to the vest.
They don't say what they want to.
I feel like you and Kevin are like dying to say things that maybe the lawyers won't let you sometimes. So what goes into your decision to do things like Future Proof where you prepare an entire presentation and deck and put all that effort in to give a report out to the community, which is sort of counter to a lot of what we see in the NFT space?
Yeah, this is an interesting topic. I will say, you know, I don't have an answer on whether or not that's even, you know, that productive and whether or not we should keep doing that. I will say we got a lot of feedback from a lot of people that didn't love that, that didn't love having that much of a heads up on it. I think Kevin and I have really kind of approached, I guess, a lot of the proof thing in
saying, you know, when you take a large financial investment, you're kind of accountable for a
degree of transparency of what's happening behind the scenes. And there's probably a possibility
that we have leaned into that even too hard and ensuring that it's like, oh, well, we're going to
tell you exactly what we're going to be working on for the next six months. And I know for a lot of people, the moment that that timeline is
presented, that can feel really daunting and obviously in the space that feels really long.
And then conversely, even as a product person in this space, talking about what you're going to do
six months out can absolutely get really tricky because the space changes. And so those best laid plans that you had six months ago may not be what you end up
going to market with by the time you get there, by the time you're digging into the actual like,
hey, let's talk to users, let's talk to creators, let's talk to artists, all of that kind of stuff
that you want to put in for your due diligence. And so I will say it's been a kind of learning.
I know that there's a meme that our response to everything should just be the word soon with eyeballs, either that or just not talk until we're releasing next week. I don't think that that is really our DNA. I don't think going that sort of shuttered is a perspective that we really want to take.
that we really want to take. But I will say that, you know, there's probably are learnings there
for us to really take to heart, which is that, you know, when you talk about something long term,
one of the things that we're balancing is you have a lot of people in the community.
And some of those people are not there to go for the long term. And to be honest, that's not a bad
thing. There's nothing wrong with recognizing that like holding something, you know, for the
next five years is not the play that you want to make. And so I think that, you know, for the next five years is not the play
that you want to make. And so I think that, you know, we need to be really sensitive, we need to
be thoughtful about the fact that sometimes communication can really push off something,
which can deflate a lot of the wind out of a lot of people's sails of potentially their ability to
be able to either move on from a project if they feel it's not the right fit for them. So what I
will say is, I think we're a work in progress on that front. I think it's something
that we want more community feedback on just how much information we publish out there,
how we can be more diligent about the things that we do announce. Maybe it is a little bit closer,
maybe there's a middle ground there, but ultimately still trying to ensure that we do
have a degree of transparency with everything that we're working on. Because you're right, there is a degree to which when
we looked at future proof, it really did feel like a very accountable call to say,
this is what we're doing. This is why we're hiring. This is why we've got three staff artists.
This is how we're working on these things. That was sort of the original thought process on it. Now, that being said, I think that there's a good question to even have about whether or not that format and delivering future proof with all the pomp and all of the early trailing, if that really is appropriate or the right way to do things, or is it really to go a little more homegrown a little more organic with the communication making it you know a little smaller fanfare with kind of how we
do it um i don't know there's a lot i'm thinking through but but just know those conversations
aren't lost on us in how to show up better that's really that's really interesting oh go ahead cap
i just my wheels are spinning and justin i i don't mean to put you on the spot here and feel free to just no comment anything
that you don't want to speak to.
But it really probably started yesterday
hearing Tim talk on Ryan's face
and him growing up playing Dungeons & Dragons
and being a DM
and then hearing you talk about it in your background today.
I wasn't so much deep into Dungeons & Dragons growing up,
but probably more like a lot of RPGs on old school computers
and one that comes out would be like Hero Quest,
which had been almost like a guided poor man's version of D&D.
But where my brain goes is it's,
I think the obvious connection there is the storytelling, right?
I think that's why I said in our discord yesterday, bullish on Tim. He's one of the greatest authors of our generation and also someone who is a passion for storytelling and was a dungeon master. how it's got so many checkboxes in terms of you know things that would would lead to a you know long-term viable successful project but the the one thing i don't think i'd really connected the
dots on and maybe it's there's nothing there but just hearing tim talk yesterday and now you today
is it where what can we do in terms of because i think with like that dnd background it's not
just the storytelling aspect for for a dungeon master but I think like the word that comes to mind
or the phrase would be like community lore,
like or like collective lore building
where it's the community is creating that story
or telling that story together.
And while we've seen like efforts of that in this space,
Jenkins comes to mind,
you know, leading the charge there. I don't know as if we've seen like efforts of that in this space. Jenkins comes to mind, you know, leading the charge there.
I don't know as if we've really seen that type of,
I don't even know where I'm trying to get to here,
but my wheels are truly spinning.
You're getting a glimpse into my ADD brain as I think through this.
I just like when I got excited about this space,
I'll go find a tweet.
I sent to one of my best friends who's not in the space,
but it was one of my childhood friends who's not in the space but it was
one of my childhood friends i grew up playing games like hero quest with and these role-playing
games and i think it was like probably a week after minting board apes light bulbs started
going off in my head i was like oh my gosh this is it i started seeing all these texts and these
notes about it's essentially like the idea of loot on chain but i just i over complicated it
thinking we had needed to build the whole game out and
it versus ultimately what loot did was drop you know dom dropped some some text on on on nfts and
then the community took and ran and built all that lore with it right it's it's that sort so i guess
loot would probably be the example i was searching for but do you see i'm really just rambling here
and trying to think how i connect
all these dots but you just i've really there's something i haven't really it's i haven't been
able to connect all the dots i guess what i'm trying to say but i i do think there's a lot of
parallels there a lot of a lot of combo denominators with with the the storytellers and a lot of the
leaders in this space and i'm also kind of searching for is, is there a way we collectively can deliver that, almost that Dungeons and Dragons type experience where the community continues to build upon the lore collectively? Does that make sense?
when we fumbled the ball with the communication in a really big way on the CC0 announcement and
that decision, the intention behind where we really wanted to go with a lot of this was trying
to see how we can empower the community to really build a lot of these things and feel like they
have the license to be able to together form something. But we recognize that once again,
going back to the original Moonbirds collection, in that collection, we didn't give any story.
There was no lore.
There was nothing about the world in the original Moonbirds collection.
I mean, I had illustrated a pixelated night sky and the individual Moonbirds and then every now and then a couple things, you know, to like put on Twitter.
like put on Twitter, there was no story that was tied to it. And so we really felt like it was our
There was no story that was tied to it.
responsibility to be able to seed the universe with a story, a much bigger story. And it felt
silly even saying that we could do this because again, it gets into the fantastical, it gets into
the weird and the strange. What are these owls? Are they really just owls? And who are these spirit
guides? And where do they come from? And how do oddities exist? What is the odd God? Like all of this kind of stuff felt really out there to do.
But we felt it was really important when we said, if we want to empower the community to be able to
build and the DAO is going to be the one who's awarded the funds to be able to utilize and be
able to essentially take proposals and be able to build, one of the things that we would love to
see is people build in that universe. But we recognize that in order to do that, we can do our job to providing a
really good backbone and a really good story and a timeline of where we are, where we find ourselves
in this universe. And if you want to build in the doubt and you want to utilize, that absolutely go.
But if you want to go off plane and you want to tell your own story,
like, I mean, what comes to mind to me is like, you know, I think about comics, comics, I'm a big
comic reader. And like comics have like a lot of convoluted timelines. They're really hard to get
into. But for the most part, you know, they've tried sometimes without actually being able to do
it to create a sort of like, this is the mainstream narrative in
this universe that matters. And then they have all these kind of branching narratives that exist
where, you know, it's like, like there's like, you know, you have your core Batman kind of story
that's existing in the main earth. And then you've also got like, you know, Gotham by Gaslight,
which is this sort of, you know, kind of like Jack the Ripper version of Batman. You've got all
these different universes that kind of work together. So it's like, I don't need everybody who wants to build
from the Dow funds to build from this specific point of the universe. But at the same time,
I do feel an onus to be able to provide something that they can work with. And we've seen already,
you know, there's a Moonbirds comic that people have been working on and they put a lot of time
and effort and energy in the art is really beautiful. And I know that they've wanted to
sync just on sort of like, hey, can you tell us more about the story? We want to be able to pull
from it. And one of the things that we love about opening up this kind of system and this platform
is like, we can come out with things and we can push those things out. But at the same time,
the community can do that too. And in a sense, like our stuff has to be good and their stuff has to be good too.
And ultimately, if the community builds a project that people are just super jazzed
about and it overshadows some of the things that we're currently like, I think that could
be great.
I'm excited to see builders be able to take something and be able to release something
like I got my start in art
because I love video games. I didn't know what to draw, so I just drew pictures from Legend of
Zelda that really inspired me as a kid, or Bioshock because I was obsessed with the game. I just made
fan art. That's how I got started in art before I ever felt powerful enough, if you will, to make
my own universes and make my own world. It was just taking other people's, putting my spin on it and learning how these things are done. And I think
that there is absolutely space and there's welcoming for more of that to happen. I'd love
to see it. I'm really excited about the possibilities of that. But that was an awesome question.
Yeah, the community building in that piece is great. And it's one of the unique aspects of
being able to be so tight with your community. And love it like one of the things i i um i want to touch on uh one quick thing to get get
an answer from a thought from you on and then i want to go to mackie then we'll get into the news
of the day because i just really appreciate the um you know the discussion here and i just think
you're such a i don't know thoughtful and interesting person to talk to that i think
we're getting a lot of great insight into what it takes to be a thoughtful, intentional builder in this world.
But before we go to Mackie, I want to touch on that because, again, it's, you know, for what it's worth, and I realize it's a sample size of one.
I absolutely love the sort of open communication and future proof because I am, you know, sort of that long term holder.
And my personal bias comes into play there because it's like to me, I'm like I'm holding this for long term.
And, oh, my God, look at all these things I get to be excited about in the future.
But, you know, you mentioned like, hey,
we got a lot of feedback across the board.
And I think that's really thoughtful and something y'all do really well.
And I've, you know,
I've pretty consistently been excited about the fact that you're always
willing to listen and learn more than anybody and almost separate the signal
from the noise to some degree where you have to sort of figure out what is
legitimate feedback and what is just somebody sort of trolling and being negative. And so I guess like my question
would be, you know, what goes into that thought and what sort of maybe even, you know, recommendations
or thoughts you have for other builders about that? Because I think y'all are sort of a masterclass
in taking feedback. So I'd love for you to touch on sort of like your perspective on feedback from
the community and how you go about that, because I think you're very gracious in how you take it.
And sometimes people are a little more aggressive and you sort of separate what's important from
that feedback. So I'd love your thoughts on that before we go to Mackie and then move on to the
news of the day. Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm honestly not great at all of it. Like, to be
honest, like I'm probably somebody that feels things like deeper than I probably should. Um, and, and I don't think that that's necessarily
always helpful. Um, I think it's just for me, I've, I've tried to sort of show up to conversations,
um, in such a way that, you know, I, I recognize that like, not everything is going to come in the
right package. Um, and sometimes it's really going to suck. And, you know, you're going to have to wade through some of that. But inside there,
there's truth into what somebody's feeling. You know, it's like, while, you know, this is just
somebody's anecdote or their experience, and like, you can't remove that from them. At the same time,
like how they show up is usually indicative of their mindset of what they're experiencing. And
sometimes that's your direct impact. And sometimes there are externalities that you're not a part of
that are influencing the way that they show up to those conversations. I probably am a little
overly concerned with how people show up to those conversations. I'm trying to mine for the things
that are worth hearing. But at the same time, it's also fair to recognize when somebody continually shows up, continually
beats the same damn drum and doesn't want their mind changed, doesn't want to engage.
They're there just to basically argue in bad faith like, okay, great, fine.
Take what you need out of that first interaction.
Figure out where they're coming from.
Understand that.
Be open to if new information comes to light, that they have something to go.
But it's like, I think that's one area in the space that I would love to see more of, which is
gracious people that are understanding that it's like all of these people that are experts are
learning to do what they're doing in the course of a year and a half. And there's a lot that's
changing in this space. And there's a lot that we can do better, and we should hold ourselves accountable.
Toxic positivity can be just as bad as toxic negativity in every sense of the word.
Only focusing on the good is not going to be helpful.
But at the same time, how can we show up as people to try and be gracious, to try and
guide the conversation into something productive, and to actually work with people into saying,
the conversation into something productive and to actually work with people into saying like,
hey, this sucked.
hey, this sucked. But at the same time, like if you want to make this right, this is like,
I'm open to new information. That doesn't mean we give everybody the chance to do that over and
over again and inflict that. Of course, that's an abusive relationship if you were to walk into it.
But I look at every project and I really try to think through the fact of like, hey, people are
going to mess up here. People are going to say the wrong thing. They're going to do the wrong thing. The leadership is going to say the wrong thing and it's going to do the wrong thing. But ultimately, there is a signal to probably get where if you can't move on from this, from something and you can't decide that you're ready to, you know, change the conversation to looking towards the future, it's probably not worth you being a part of it. Because at the end of the day, why would you be in that relationship? If there's an extramarital affair with a partner,
if you decide you want to move forward in that relationship, the goal is not to drag them through
the mud every day and bring it up. The goal is not to remind the person that you're with
that they are less than or that they're undeserving. And I think one of the things that I'd love to see,
and myself included, I need to do better at this, is leading from a place of curiosity,
of not assuming bad intent, of trying to understand that there are a lot of legitimate
builders that are trying to do a lot of different things here and having respect for what it takes
to do a lot of these things. And not just for being a project leader. Respect for what it
means to be a holder. Respect for what it means to just be curious about the space and try and learn more about it. The last thing that I
want to see is incredible, legitimate builders and artists and creators see toxicity that comes
out of a space and just assume that this is what it must be like all the time. I don't want to be
a part of something like that. And I don't want to see gatekeeping happen at a high level. I want to see more grace. I want to see accountability. I want to see transparency. I want to have to
apologize. And if I don't apologize, like recognize, like then that's not good enough.
And so I think that, you know, like everything, there's nuance, there's complex things happening
under the surface for a lot of these things. But I do think how we show up in the space,
whether you're doxed or undoxed, it matters and the conversations matter. And the
way that people outside of this world see this space, it does matter. Whether it's inviting,
whether it's inclusive, whether we're going out of our way to make sure that what we're building
in the ruins of the old world looks better than it did in the past, all of these things. And how
do we get rid of those notions of like, well, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Like, I just, I don't think that's
productive. I don't think it's good. Yeah. I think that's well said. I think, um, one, I I've
said before, I think people need to give grace to some of the project founders that are building.
We've never in human history had people building startups in public like this before. And it's just, it's a hard thing to do.
And people make mistakes.
They're flawed, but, you know, understanding intent.
And to sort of your point, like, I have this conversation with my kids all the time, actually,
where it's like, don't, forgiveness doesn't come with conditions.
So when you, when somebody apologizes and you're trying to move forward,
it, you know, remember if they do it again and again, right, then there's a pattern, but like, at the same time, having conditions to forgiveness and being like, Oh, yeah, we're
moving forward, but then constantly reminding, it means that, you know, there's more to unpack
there. And you haven't necessarily done that. And it's a hard thing to do sometimes. But,
um, you know, the other thing is, you know, other thing is you know i look you know separating
yourself from a bad situation is one thing holding a grudge is drinking poison and expecting the other
person to get sick it doesn't do you a whole lot of good so um i think it's a good point um i want
to go to mackie um actually mackie mackie and riggs hold for one second because i do want to go to
uh the news of the day because there's so much exciting stuff here and you know i i know we
should have gotten to it earlier but i I just love talking to you, Justin,
and I love the perspective you bring to this world.
But let's talk about InChain, the updates to the profile.
Like, I want to get to the exciting stuff that's going on with Moonbirds right now,
because, you know, we saw some stuff yesterday,
and I know it was announced at Future Proof, and you're super pumped about it.
So let's get to that, and then Mackie and Riggs, I promise we'll get down to you.
Justin, talk a little bit about what you announced yesterday.
Yeah, absolutely. So Moonbirds have officially moved. For some people, they want to use the term on-chain and that's okay. Divergence, which is Harry and Aaron
as well as CX Coda, who's Dave, have utilized the term in-chain for what they want to be able to
use for this. And for them, it's just a different level of specificity, basically signaling there are no external dependencies on being able to generate this
image. So for them, it really was just sort of like they saw on-chain as feeling really broad
as a term. And so they wanted the specificity to go along with it. I understand that there are
notable feelings about this. And again, that's something that it's like, okay, great. How do we
lean in and learn and try to understand from a productive place how to kind of move forward, how to talk about these things?
For us, it's something we're really excited about. Obviously, that means that we've taken
the moon bird from being this IPFS kind of hosted PNG that lives elsewhere and now storing it on
the Ethereum blockchain kind of forevermore. There was a really cool tool that was built
internally to be able to release this, and it's called Solidify, and it's been open sourced so that other people can utilize it. They're able to get a really, really impressively compressed sort of way to be able to do this. It was really awesome. They're really fabulous people, but ultimately, their mantra has absolutely been, how do we make sure this is for the good of the whole community?
You know, this isn't a space where the goal should just be to compete with one another.
How do we make sure other people can utilize this thing?
We can activate other creators to be able to make decisions like this.
The nice thing about this was, you know, within the contract that we had already set up to enable this to happen, you know, we kind of had the nesting part in the contract.
It also allows us to be able to change
the background dynamically. And we had always wanted to launch with that. So if you have a
proof collective pass in your wallet, you're enabled, you are able to turn on the proof
collective enabled background. And because it's stored in bitmap, which is something that Twitter
can read, that verified version of your NFT will also go and
still give you the Twitter hex on there. And that was something that originally we were going to
store with SVG was something that we weren't going to be able to do, but switching over to Bitmap,
that's what enabled us to be able to do that. So that was super cool. And so that came with a slew
of a lot of things on the platform. We launched a new account creation flow, which allows you to
kind of reserve your username on the platform side of the house, as well as a redesign of the
collector profile page, which for us, we really think about that as kind of like the fulcrum of
identity in your kind of proof ecosystem context, hopefully in the broader Web3 context and how we
think about that. That also came with, you know, like a banner, which is really just more of an
opportunity for us to create more art to customize. We're able to token gate some of those. So, you know,
there's exclusive banners, depending on what you hold that you can enable and kind of have that
customization, that flare on your profile. We redesigned kind of stamps, which is kind of our
achievement system within the proof ecosystem. And for us, we just really enjoy being able to
celebrate people and thinking about, you know, the process of collecting, how do we find those
small wins, those small moments of delight, where we can really kind
of shine a light on you and give you something to be excited with. But also, you know, so the
community gets to know who these people are, it gives them color, gives an understanding of kind
of the person behind the screen. So we've got a lot more of those platform level things that are
going out. We also shift with kind of like little nesting emoji when it's on open seas so just a lot of
little small quality of life updates new community pages that are aligned to an oddities page there's
you know the moonbirds page and so there's there's just more and more kind of stuff that we're
building into that platform and migrating it over from just the moonbirds xyz platform over to that
the full proof platform so we really start to see the convergence of all of these identities
and all of these properties
into a much larger ecosystem.
So it becomes sort of a center hub
for all things proof
and not just sort of having the moon birds
sort of bifurcated from that,
giving people sort of an opportunity
to sort of connect those identities
and learn more about each other.
Is it a place that you're going to map back to a lot
in sort of your future communications
and discussions so that people are able to look there? And I don't want to glaze
over the in-chain thing, which I think is obviously very cool. But I like the idea of
being able to personalize and have your own personal flair a little bit more. So is the
idea that in the future, you'll continue to map people back there to kind of learn about each
other and have more connective tissue on that site to sort of almost be this is sort of your
membership hub? That is absolutely the intention,
which is, you know, recognizing that identity is a really nuanced thing in this space. What you
choose to share, how much of yourself you choose to share should be up to you. And you should be
able to say, hey, listen, this is not a great opportunity for me to be docs, you know, for
whatever reason, maybe it's where you're located, maybe it's who you are. We fully recognize those
things. And so, you know, when we really take a look at what we're building here,
we're trying to be able to system that can give some context on this individual,
either what they care about, what they've taken part in,
hopefully be able to increase that footprint of personalization over time
to be able to open up to the broader Web3 space so it's not just proof eventually.
We really want to be able to see more and more community show up. And hopefully,
we use proof as a real testing grounds to figure out what's working. What do people want to share?
How are they connecting? And hopefully we use that to kind of grow and as a model and a blueprint
to be able to expand and to continue to grow this space. That's great. I love the idea of that sort of connective tissue and putting that
in and kind of leading in that way and the opportunity to add multiple wallets. Again,
this is what I talk about when, and I got a DM while we were talking. I got actually a couple
DMs about like, we need to have more conversations like this with thoughtful and intentional builders
because it's a thing that maybe goes unnoticed to some people, the amount of work that goes into something like this.
But when you actually look at it, it's like the levels of detail.
Like when you go to the site, you, you know, the way you can set your picture, your banner,
the different even interface where it's like connect your wallet and there's a moon bird
with like, you know, a tome that you're working from.
It's, I think there's a lot of thoughts that go into this sort of thing.
So it's not lost on me how much work goes into this sort of thing,
which I think is something that is, you know, again,
it could have been easy to just build a site and go the way you were and be
like, Hey, we're going to do events and we're going to do airdrops.
But there's just so many different like sort of arms to what you're
building, which I think is really cool.
I do want to toss around because we have a lot of hands that I know we've
been going for a while here,
which we appreciate your time just because this has been freaking awesome so just let us know if
you have a hard stop um but uh you know this has been great so far but I do want to get some hands
because part of our you know as I know you've been listening a bit um so you know part of the
thing is we love we have a really smart uh group and community here that has really great questions
so I want to toss to our guy Mackie first and we we'll go Riggs, Susan, then Lacos. Mackie, GM.
Good morning.
Real quick, real quick before we do that.
And hey, good morning.
Hi, Dustin.
Harry is in the audience, and Harry is part of Divergence as well.
So I just want to make sure if anybody has any of those technical questions,
we can get her up on the stage as well to be able to answer and to be able to give some context as well.
Just throwing that out there.
Yeah, Harry's not only very smart, but incredible accent.
So Harry, if you want to request up, feel free to request up.
We'd love to have you on stage.
It was really good hearing you in the Future Proof discussion.
I mean, it was freaking awesome.
So I appreciate that, Justin.
So Harry, feel free to request up.
We will definitely get you up here.
Mackie, go ahead and get in here.
I love incredible accents. I'm ready erie please uh but i want to go back to the community building
and the dnd side of things uh i want to talk specifically about you know nintendo is notorious
for shutting that kind of stuff down quite often uh throwing dmcas left and right but then you have
stuff like star wars fan fiction becoming canon
and it sounds like proof is leaning more towards that so there's not a lot of question why moonbirds
has gone cco i don't think but uh i kind of want to talk about you know creating a web3 platform
feels like game design and nintendo's doing the opposite effect do you think opening the doors of creation
to your community will be like the future of gaming i know like rolox and fortnite already
do this on a certain level but it sounds like proof wants to incorporate this on a much more
meaningful level i think the way you're you're kind of highlighting it which is like how do we
do this in a meaningful way is is the way that we want to do it, where it's like, you know, we absolutely want to invite creation in
there at the same time, we want to be able to, first off, empower the creators who are excited
about being able to do this, but also continue to build alongside it. The last thing we want to do
is take our foot off the gas and just say, Oh, well, this is covered, they're going to do it for
us. Let's not worry about it. And they can kind of rake and profit for us. So I think, you know, part of this is really trying to figure out how do we deploy our resources, but also
our humans to be able to work with them, to be able to cultivate, to be able to partner with
them, to be able to mentor where mentorship is needed, to continue to enforce some accountability,
especially when finances are involved. So absolutely, it's an area that we'd love to
see more with the caveat that you know it's kind of
what you mentioned like how do we do this in a meaningful way how do we make sure that when we
do it it's us being very intentional with what you know doing and building in this ecosystem looks
like but also like holding it to a level of quality and some standards that we'd love to be
able to see and i think that the community gets to make a lot of those decisions but i am absolutely
excited about the idea of rolling up my sleeves and actually being able to design with our community members, being like, awesome, you've got a lot.
You don't have a designer. How do I help out with this?
So cool. Thank you, Ed. Oatmeal my mouth. Classic me.
Mackie's a big oatmeal guy. Let's run down to Riggs and then'll go Susan, and then we'll bring it up to Lackos.
Riggs, GM friend.
GM, what's happening?
Can you guys hear me all right?
I'm in my car.
I love it.
Always sound like you're coming from the moon when you're coming from a car,
and I actually dig that, and I like to pretend you are in space.
You know, we're headed to the moon altogether anyways.
I just may have gotten an early jump on you.
And just from Hunter's earlier comment way in the show today of being thankful for our significant others uh i made the comment yesterday i didn't intend to be here today
uh because i was headed to my in-laws with her uh and then i find out justin you're going to be on
here i am a massive fan of proof and moonbirds and so so I'm actually sitting in my car. We just pulled up to my in-laws and so she's buying time.
While Bob is probably going to give me crap when I get in there,
that's my father-in-law, but that's all good.
I appreciate her for giving me this opportunity. And so Justin, you know,
I, I think you and Kevin, those that know me proof,
proof and moonbirds is the one project that I'm putting big bets on long term.
So I am definitely a long term believer in what you guys are doing.
With that being said, one of the challenges I've been having when I talk to individuals that are in the space is when the comment comes up that they believe Justin and Kevin are going to create a great business,
but how is that going to come back?
How is the value going to come back to the holders at all, if any?
And so my answer has always been, well, I believe in the ecosystem that they're building.
I think from the word that rhymes with Moken may be beneficial down the road as well. But
we've heard Kevin talk about this, but I haven't always heard you as often talk through how you
view, one, us as holders, because there's a conception of we're not equity investors, right?
We are, we're customers in essence, but we're building alongside of you, and I think the CC0 decision was one you guys made, so that really opens the door for us to build with you. big time believer is challenged to even answer the question in a elegant manner of
why I believe value will come back to holders.
Yeah, this is a space wide question, in my opinion, which is, you know, there was a green
field time when a lot of projects, most projects even felt like they were going up and to the
right.
And it felt like, you know, in some ways, you were just kind of able to print money and be able to kind of
trade your way up. I'm not sure that that universe is going to continue to exist. Now, mass adoption
could absolutely continue to bring a lot more profitability and a lot more, you know, good up
into the right graphs into the space. I suspect, though, in some degree, that, you know, whether
it's the mainstreaming of Web3 technologies, or whether it's NFTs, you know, continuing to grow
the way that they did in kind of those those bull runs there, it may look different than we think,
it may be different projects, different change, different things that are able to do that. And
that's not to say that I don't think it will be these things. But it very well could look very
different than kind of what we're imagining.
And I think that, you know, we always have to prepare for an eventuality that things will look different and it'll change dynamically.
I will say every project is going to have to work with this, you know, whether other side is a success or not.
What does the trickle down effect look like for every holder that's a part of it?
And the same thing for every project that's running right now, unless you are sort of, you know, cutting a check, or basically enabling people to be able to kind of
take their personality and be able to do something with it. How do we think about value accrual as
we think about, you know, the NFTs that people are holding? As we think more about, you know,
kind of the platform level stuff, there's access, there's opportunity that we would like to build
in there that's going to be unique to our holders. I think that's something that we've always really wanted to lead out with.
But ultimately, the Dow is sort of our area that we would like to see some really interesting
dynamics come into play. Now, of course, the royalties discussion means that we need to
continue to evolve even that language. We need to continue thinking about better ways to ensure
that it stays funded, that we're not draining liquidity quickly. And ultimately, there has to be some actual governance
that we need to help with in terms of like, hey, here's our recommendation for how much we should
be awarding in a quarter. Again, you can go outside of that, but how do we help and partner
with the DAO to be able to do some of these things? But ultimately, just know there's not
a single product decision that we make that we're not looking at that and looking at every kind of, you know, part of the ecosystem. Okay, how does this work
for Proof Collective? Okay, cool. Proof Collective may have access to these collections, to this
exhibition, you know, to this drop. What about Moonbirds? How does this work for Moonbirds? Okay,
how do we make sure there's value accrual that's happening over here? Okay, great. What about,
you know, as we think about Mythics, what is their place kind of here in the ecosystem?
So, you know, we fully recognize there's an accountability that we have to be able to deliver some of those things.
I think every single project is going to be wading through this existential question and really trying to figure out what it looks like, especially in the current markets right now that we're kind of working through.
The best that I can tell you right now is that for every product that we're working through, this is a consideration, how people are experiencing it. And the one thing
that we don't want to do, I don't think I can confidently say is, if the only benefit is just
walling off a part of the garden, and just kind of like crippling the main experience, just so that
only certain people get these things. I don't know if that's a great long term play. I think there are pieces of the experience that it's okay to be able to
say, hey, this is kind of a VIP. This is something exclusive that exists here. But at the same time,
I do think we need to continue to think really big when it comes to the space and when it comes
to mass adoption, all of those kinds of things. How do we make ourselves a community that people
desire to be a part of, that they want to jump into. Because I do think
there's a degree to which community is going to drive a lot of this. If people want to be a part
of it, they aspire to be within this group, that's going to continue to like, hey, how do we welcome
people into this space? And so I wish I had a great answer where it's like, here's the business
plan that we've got to do all these things. Just know that this is a major, major talking point
that we have,
that we feel a lot of onus, responsibility, and accountability to deliver. And it's the reason why
our plans will continue to evolve. They'll continue to incorporate new externalities
and new information and honestly the new zeitgeist into how we're making some of these decisions.
No, I definitely appreciate that, man. And we can hear the passion in your voice
and from that standpoint the authenticity of of that so i i just appreciate your time coming on
here today and with that everybody i hope you have a wonderful thanksgiving i do have to go hop into
uh the house and spend some time with the in-laws but uh love you all uh thank you for everything
and again have a wonderful thanksgiving happy thanksgiving riggs happy holiday riggs thanks for uh thanks for jumping up as always from the car or from
the moon i should say and uh we appreciate you obviously you say moon i i hear riggs and i think
like am like talk show radio call-in show yeah because he's thoughtful and he's smart and asks
really good questions and he's but he's got like thes on a – remember back in the day, I'm old enough to remember.
The sound.
It just sounds like it's an old school – yeah, it sounds like he's calling into a talk radio show.
Yeah, rigs on a car phone.
They used to say what they were calling from before cell phones when only Zach Morris had a cell phone because he was the coolest.
Let's go Susan Lackos.
I do have some questions for Harry I want to get into.
But I want to make sure we get through the community questions as well. So, Susan, GM, get back.
Hey, GM, I'm back. Justin, really, really cool to hear you talk. I heard Kevin talk the other day.
I think what I really love about the space right now is the opportunity to talk about this stuff.
You know, being a game developer for a couple decades now
and coming into the space last year,
you know, I feel like we're just sort of getting involved
in sort of publicly in some of these conversations
and that there are moves I haven't always agreed with
that various projects have made,
but I think it's really interesting to hear everyone
talk it through and hear like why they're doing
what they're doing.
And I love a lot of what you said
and the fact that you are talking about, you know, the obligation we all have as projects right now in like these early days.
I've said before, I was there in the beginning of Free to Play Mobile, and some decisions got made
that could never be undone and set standards, like, for example, making everything free,
and then it became impossible to charge anything for it. And I think we've got some big fundamental
questions right now for our industry
like um nft rights cc zero versus sole license and how we articulate the differences in that
stuff for users because like you say there are a lot of new people coming into the space and they
don't really read their rights and they don't know what to expect and so that's why i think
you know that's why we're open sourcing our nft rights agreement for example because you know we want to help and we want everyone else to not have to go through the same heavy lifting we did trying to figure that stuff out over the last year and a half.
You know, creating an open standard for, you know, for digital interoperables.
Again, this is about supporting each other, how we think about secondary rights, how we think about, you know, whether mints should be free, whether they should be charged and everything.
How do you think? I'm curious. you've been in Web3 longer than me,
how do we get leaders of these projects to come together and start talking to each other
to sort of think these things through in sort of roundtable fashion, other than spaces, obviously.
It just feels like there's a lot to be learned from each other and a lot to talk through
because otherwise marketplaces are going to decide this stuff for us.
And that's freaking awful.
Like the secondary rights thing.
We should all be talking together.
And I think that there's power in the best projects in the community talking to each other about this stuff as opposed to letting other people make decisions for us.
Ooh, don't know if we lost Justin on there or if he's talking on mute.
I can't hear Susan.
I was politely waiting
to basically just be like,
I don't want to jump in in the middle of her talking.
That's all. I'm so sorry.
Oh my God. Susan, I heard you
and that was like a mic drop question.
I thought you blew Justin away with that question.
Oh my God. I am so sorry.
Although if Harry is hearing
and if Harry can hear, she has a lot of context just as I do. I am so sorry, Susan. I am so sorry. Although if Harry is hearing and if Harry can hear,
she has a lot of context just as I do. I am so sorry, Susan.
I cannot hear you.
Don't be ridiculous. No. Should I try that again?
I'm going to try to say it with the same amount of time.
Steve, Steve, you want to relate the question? So Justin can try to.
There we go.
Yeah. I think her, I think her, I think her, her main question was basically at, you know,
as a builder in this space is how these sort of, and Susan, tell me if I misrepresent anything and I'll put it back through, but how we get these sort of leaders for projects like yourself and others who are heads are in the right space together more often to help sort of make these industry-wide decisions together or sort of have collaboration on those instead of doing it in a vacuum because we have so so many decisions being made and making the right decisions matters. And, you know, one decision
can affect the next. So how do you get together or approach that to talk with other leaders from
other projects and places like that? I think it's as simple as having an activator who's
passionate about that. And to be honest, we should all be passionate about that. But ultimately,
I know we're all doing a lot of things. But to me, absolutely, this feels like something that's like this.
This should be of critical importance.
If we want to talk about the space being truly collaborative, I, as a leader as well, need
to actually put up or shut up and find those opportunities to actually be collaborative,
not just be like, yeah, yeah, we love everybody.
We want to be collaborative, but then not actually invest in those things.
So Susan, to that point, I'm going to own and
be responsible for saying that I have not done enough at this point. What comes to mind is two
weeks ago when the OpenSea decision was super tenuous, I remember Betty from Deadfellas just
coming out absolutely swinging and just being like, let's get people together. Let's talk about
this. Let's figure out how to create standards. Let's have a conversation. Let's get OpenSea on the phone
and let's show up powerfully. Absolutely. We need to do more of that. It needs to be more regular
and we need to be fully committed to being able to share those findings, those insights, as well
as those innovations together as a community. The space is definitely very small. So how do we
continue to leverage that
right now to be a great group of people that really care deeply about one another?
Yeah, 100%. One of the first things I did was send an angry mail to people I know at OpenSea
and to people I know at Magic Eden. And Adam Mocha is one of our investors. Yat and I have
talked about this. I was in London in the middle of all this going on. And we talked at length about
what Adam Mocha is going to do about it, what our reaction was to it. And yeah, that was part of what I had said when I
think you didn't hear me was this is shit that we should not be letting marketplaces dictate for us.
But we need to set the terms. And if we say a contract requires a secondary royalty,
it should require a goddamn secondary royalty. Or as Yat put it, they're breaking the law. There's a contractual obligation to pay that royalty. And I haven't followed the Valhalla
project that much, but I know that I woke up this morning to some people saying on Twitter
that they were pissed off that they were going to black label marketplaces. We've got to do
something. I don't think that that's the perfect answer. And I know that Animoca didn't seem to
think so either, because that sucks and that's centralization. But if we're going to put something
out there, and if we're going to try to build utility, you know, which is what we're trying
to do, we want to ship a bunch of stuff, then then there has to be an ongoing revenue stream.
Video games cost a lot of money to make. And I haven't seen any company in the space, even Gabe,
who's raised enough money to say, we never need a secondary royalty to pay for content.
Yeah, well said, Susan, and good points all around and appreciate your appreciate being able.
I got to be like the old school telephone connector that has like the wires you plug in from one to the other.
I feel like I got to do that like back in the day. So that was super fun.
Let's go. Let's go to Lackos. Let's go to Lackos. Um, let's go to Lackos
and then, uh, Jack's been super patient, but then, like I said, I do, I do have a couple of questions
I want to run to Harry just based on the news of the day. So let's go Lackos, the, uh, the glitch
bird himself, and then we'll go to Jack and then, um, we'll hold on Punter and Drew for a second,
two very good friends of mine. So I feel okay having them hold while I go to Harry, um, Lackos
and Jack, uh, Lackos GM. Thanks to GM everyone. Hey, Justin, how's it going? Um, I, I go to Harry. Lackos and Jack. Lackos, GM. Thanks, GM, everyone. Hey, Justin,
how's it going? I wanted to take a little bit of a change in direction and get back to the
birds being in chain. For me, I look at dynamic PFPs as a future because I think they are kind
of digital identity. And that's they represent they should be be representing kind of like our true identity online.
And a lot of the times we're stuck with a PFP that you minted
and maybe it doesn't align with you, the traits you don't like
or over time that changes.
So I was really happy to see the approach that the team took
towards the proof background and how that's interchangeable.
And I know in the little blurb that you guys posted on there,
it also allows the opportunity for people to create derivatives.
But there's still, I think, some questions around that.
And this isn't really a technical question I could ask Harry if I have anything.
But for you, how do you guys look at the the future of that kind of new
mechanic that's that's being applied like how how much are you guys going to continue to push that
and empower even other creators to really be able to personalize their their moonbirds with
their backgrounds and still show that it is an actual nft right because one of the issues for
example on twitter is that I know Ryan was
in here earlier, and he's got his punk with his own custom background, but then it doesn't
recognize it as a real NFT. But you guys have kind of gone over that hump. So curious to know
what your vision is for this new mechanic that you've introduced and what are you most excited about it?
Yeah, that's a great question. I can say this much. It's very important to me to really sort of preserve the Moonbirds still being an aesthetic collection that still feels
like native and kind of what's in that universe.
Now I'm not saying that everything has to like be exactly, you know,
the like a 48, 48 kind of thing, but like one of the things that it does stress upon me though,
as we think about these things is there's,
there's different degrees that we can go in. You know,
if we allow max customization, anybody can do anything. There's,
there's a warning or a potential risk that we really water down the collection.
The only thing that kind of stands out is the moon bird and it's constantly overshadowed.
Then there's also kind of the other side where it's like, okay, we put all the rails up,
we guard, we curate, and we do all of these things to ensure that we are the ones who
are basically publishing if we were to do multiple backgrounds.
The area that I think is really
interesting is figuring out how do we do a little bit of both? How do we give if we were to go this
route? How do we ensure that there is a way to create backgrounds, but also some guide rails
that we can kind of put there if we were to allow the community to do it? Or if it was just us that
was curating them, I think where it gets potentially very interesting is obviously this background is enabled because I have an NFT, but I have an additional NFT with my Moonbird.
What does it look like to be able to do this with other NFTs, whether it's a different background that could be traded or whether it's I also hold this other collection?
hold this other collection. And maybe it's not even a proof collection. Maybe there's something
And maybe it's not even a proof collection.
special that could go out there if you hold an artist that you really admire or whatever it is,
and it's somebody that we've partnered with, or it's somebody that's in our ecosystem.
There's all kinds of interesting things that we can do. And I think, as we've said,
we really want proof to be a place that looks at the entire ecosystem that really works together.
I think the idea of being able to create those inroads and creating opportunities
to be able to share your love of not just one community, but of multiple,
I think that's where things get really interesting.
And that's something that I get really excited about,
thinking about how to build around.
I just, I mean, I was just going to say, like,
this is probably not the most eloquent way to respond,
but I was just in my head as you were talking about the art and what you're doing there the immediate thought
in my head was fuck that's cool because i just think that's such a cool cool like way to like
approach it and the potential like customization there is is is just i don't know like that like
that the way you're thinking about i'm so glad you asked that question lackos because that's uh
and i'll let you get back in because i saw you come off mute, but I just, that was my immediate response was like, what a cool, like, different, because we talk about the
fact of like, customizing and personalization and what's important to us. And it's like,
we've seen people, to your point, Lackos, make like, like Vinny Hagar's as their background,
or Riggs was up here, Riggs is a custom background for his gutter cat. And it's like,
to me, that's just such a cool concept of potential customization and personalization
based on NFT zoned,
or like my mind started to explode with possibilities
of like, you know, which Grails people own
and what they can do with that.
And just, there's so many freaking fun customizations,
but Lackos, go ahead and get back in before we go to Jack,
because I think that was, I know you came off mute.
Yeah, no, all I was going to say is,
I think low hanging fruit is the artwork
that we've seen in Grails.
And I'm not asking Justin to deny or confirm that, but I think that is something that's within their ecosystem that could easily be the next step for custom backgrounds.
It's an interesting idea. Would be wild to do.
People are talking. Harry, you went up immediately and you all have thoughts on this.
So, Jack, before we go to that, I want to go to Harry's hand here. Harry, go ahead and get it here. and so the way that we're outputting the images we are going to want to stay true to that grid and so there are going to be some things artistically that might get a bit uh messy or
clunky um but you know justin as you've seen is pretty good with pixels so i think we've still
got a lot of scope there um the second thing that we're limited by is just our desire to keep it
special um i think we don't want to overdo what we do with backgrounds
and it end up becoming something that feels like a cheap gimmick
rather than something special that actually represents something
that people are proud to associate with their kind of visual identity
on Twitter and everything else.
And then the only other thing limiting us really is just our imagination
because from a technical perspective, we've set up the contract
so that we can at the moment the rendering contract which makes the image has one set of rules in
and which is related to the proof collective background but we can substitute that for
something which adds in a completely different set of logic so we can have a background which
is only going to be available for a certain number of blocks that it's only available to a certain
number of people that it's based on what else you hold in your wallet
and it could be based on your nesting level like there's there are so many things that we can do
basically if you can put it in code then we will be able to do it so there's a lot so wait harry
does that so like cross collaborations based on what's in your wallet so theoretically if
something's in the same wallet that i've connected to the proof site maybe from like i'll you know as an example like
uh i know like y'all have talked to like on-chain monkey before i think of another on-chain
one so theoretically like if i have an on-chain monkey in my cold wallet and y'all did like
something with them you could find a way to actually connect those two so there was some
sort of combination piece there like is that i know that might be a really dumb question but is that possible
yeah pretty much i think the way that it's more likely to work is not that you know you would have
your monkey in the background which would look terrible because they'd overlap um but but more
that we could kind of work with them to come up with a custom background or set of backgrounds
that will only be triggered if you hold an on-chain monkey or you hold a certain number of them or you hold a certain subset of them um which is which is exactly what we've done
for proof collective it's not special because we deployed the contract it could be literally any
any nft contract that's out there next time somebody asked me when i say like proof is a
when i always talk about proof being like tech builders sort of like you know if you like tech
you're into proof and people are like well what, what makes you say that? I'm just going to point them to this
quote from Harry, because this is so cool. And I think that that's just kind of like, you know,
like pun not intended, sort of the proof in the pudding, as far as like thinking about the tech
stuff. Real quick, wait, wait, hold on real fast. I do want to point something out. One of the
things that's really cool is the nesting contract is actually going to enable this
in a really interesting way. Because in order to get that background, if we say, okay, you need to
be nested in order to turn that background on. And then, you know, let's say you go to sell,
that switch is flipped, and now you're unnested, it will immediately revert back to your base
background. And what's nice about that is you're not confusing the public
by showing them a different version of it
that they might mistakenly buy
because they thought they were getting that background.
Now, all of a sudden, it's like, this is what's available.
It's the blank slate version of it.
And once you get it, you are able to do more with it.
That's dope.
This is like, again, this is like, i'm the tech nerd like of like i've always
been a tech nerd so this stuff like geeks me out like you know and what what it means i i want to
go to i had a follow-up for harry but i do want to go to jack because jack you've been patient
you had your hand up before we even did uh our our uh our zed run segment so jack thank you for
your patience your hand must be exhausted from being up for so long.
You are a regular,
you are a G,
Jack GM.
Oh, GM, Steve.
You're such a DGent.
Thank you so much
for allowing me to speak
just before we get into your bits.
Thank you so much, Justin, Harry,
for giving us your time.
It's been fascinating
to listen to you guys speak.
Justin and Harry,
I met you both in
nft london london sorry not nft london in the london event for for proof and um i would just
want to say to every listener right now these guys are as genuine when they jump into spaces
as they are in real life so if you think it's impossible to be as nice as justin is
um at least from the small brief time that he gave me during that event.
I can completely confirm he is actually that nice. And Harry as well. Just lovely, lovely people.
I've got a two part question, but just cut me off, Steve, if this is going to run on too long.
One of them is in chain. And that is basically, do we see something similar to what you suggested,
basically um do we see something similar to what you suggested which is the store and because i did
notice one little piece when you did the video yesterday about in chain and where you'd sort of
broken apart the layers of the moonbirds so you know your eyes um the jackets the hats
and i'm wondering if you know do we go past backgrounds at any point and do we go into
maybe if your moonbird like mine has a jacket,
do I get to maybe tweak that jacket a little bit,
maybe give it a pin or maybe actually change that jacket entirely?
And would that be something that the DAO themselves would be able to maybe,
you know, sign off on, hey, DAO, who's got a jacket?
We've got these pieces.
Does anyone vibe with these pieces?
Yeah, I just basically want
to ask that question and then one small uh variation to that which is a quick summary
from you justin if possible on how the the whole ecosystem is going to tie together because my
brain's buzzing with like how the dow uh the token proof of conference um the basic high rise like
how is that all going to tie together because i
can think of a few ways that that's going to be really cool um but happy if you know that's that's
a bit too too alpha for the show at this this time harry you may be the one to answer oh sorry
i'll let harry jump in on on sort of uh what the contract enables? We can do anything, basically.
So the way that it's put together,
we can rewrite the rules, we can add in,
I mean, I'm not entirely sure
how Justin will feel about this,
how he'd feel about us messing with his art.
But yeah, we could change the art.
We could flip the moonbirds around
so they're left-facing.
Obviously, that's a huge matter in this space and has always done extremely well in the art. We could flip the moonbirds around so they're left-facing. Obviously, that's a huge matter in this space
and has always done extremely well in the past.
We could do whatever we want, really.
It's a case of what do people enjoy?
How much does Justin allow us to mess with his art?
Just what people want and value.
I'm not the big baron of making decisions like that. I will say
I'm always open. I just think, you know, we as a community can come together and make some of
those decisions. Like I think, you know, kind of what you alluded to, Jack, about the DAO being a
great place to drive a lot of these conversations. Justin as an artist is going to have preferences,
but ultimately I'd really love, you know, in the same way same way that I don't ever want to be too precious about my design work, I feel the same way about my art.
And we as a team go back and forth on my design work, and sometimes my design is all right.
Sometimes it's excellent, doesn't need any changes, and sometimes it's absolutely garbage and everything needs to change.
So I think it's going to be a steady balance of the proof team continuing to lead out, be able to make decisions
on some things in terms of how we want to lead. But at the same time, we have a DAO and we want
that DAO to be inclusive to that conversation. We want them to drive a lot of these as well.
I'd love to see proposals that change. Maybe I had an opinion. We have that phrase that strong
opinions loosely held. I'd love to see a proposal that comes through, completely blows my mind.
And it's like, yeah, we got to do this.
This is amazing.
This is brilliant.
We have all the safeties here
to be able to make a great collection
to continue that we're innovating
and doing something really great,
but also allowing a level of customization
and identity that the community is proud to wear.
So yes, very, very open to all that.
I just thought one thing I will add
is what we're not going to do is anything which messes up the rarity or specialness of different traits.
And so if you have a bird which is rare because, I don't know, I'm looking down at here, Drew with a halo, LaCos with a glitch, we've got scully heads.
What we're not going to do is change it around. So now suddenly anyone can have any of those rare traits
because then it just stops the individual pieces
being individual and special and unique.
So one thing that we will be very conscious of
if we do start introducing a little bit more variation.
That's awesome.
That's good, Alpha.
And go ahead, Jack.
Sorry.
I was just going to say,
A, thank you so much for answering that question.
And that was way, way, way bullish.
So, so, so glad I got to ask that question.
And B, completely agree with Harry.
Like the way the store was initially announced,
I think this has completely been scrapped by now,
but is very much trait based.
So say the Halo, for example, how about a Flamin' Halo,
where only the people with the Halo trait could actually go for the flaming halo or like these slight just like additional pieces to what they already own.
Same with the glasses. Maybe, you know, you could funk them out a little bit.
But yeah, yeah, 100%. Thank you so much for answering that question and taking the time.
And I don't want to downplay how cool this is from a tech perspective, because again, when something is on chain or in chain in this case
i always make the comparison to a cave drawing they're cave drawings for hundreds of thousands
of years ago because they exist as long as that cave exists something that exists as long as the
ethereum blockchain exists which is certainly hopefully going to be my lifetime otherwise it
would be wild um is not to be understated and to do this sort of stuff on the back end is so
impressive so i mean to say you know harry is is sort of brilliant and hard working on this stuff is
an understatement i mean it is really really impressive um you know and i'm like i wish you
could see like like i am like a labrador with my tail wagging right now at the tech stuff here
because it's so interesting to kind of hear all those um directions that they're potentially
going so this is awesome.
Knowing we've had Justin and now Harry for about an hour and a half,
and they've been so generous, I'm going to wind through the rest of the hands,
and then we will probably close down just to give them some time back,
because I know it's getting to be actual business hours over there on the West Coast. But y'all have been so generous.
But I want to run through the final hands and get through here,
because this has been unbelievably valuable. And I to be clear when i use the term bullish
because i was about to say bullish i mean i'm excited i'm looking forward i'm not telling
anybody financially i'm expecting anything to go up down or around uh my whole thing is i am
bullish on moonbirds i am bullish on proof i am bullish on the moonbirds team um just because of
things like this and conversations like this the the level of detail, intentionality, and thought that goes into each aspect and pushing the space forward,
I think are things that are important to talk about.
So let's go down to Outer Lumen.
Then we'll come up to Punter and then we'll go to, actually, we'll go to Outer than Dave
Toronto than Punter because I know, Dave, you've tried to get up a couple of times and
you're someone I was fortunate to meet in LA as well.
So sorry on the order there, but let's go outer first. Hey, thanks so much. This is exciting for
me as someone who minted a moonbird and has had it nested since day one to actually like talk to
some moonbirds people. So hi, still have it. I'm really curious. So a couple of things. One,
just when Susan was here talking kind of about this notion of collaboration in builders,
I think it's important for projects not to forget the Ethereum Foundation and all of the community stuff that's happening there,
especially if your project is on Ethereum and you have devs to make sure that they're involved in that as kind of this idea of interoperability
and kind of like not just thinking about it at the marketplace perspective,
but thinking about it on, you know,
the chain that you're actually on.
And then a question for Harry is,
is the stuff that you guys are doing strictly on chain in terms of like SVG
kind of formatting, or is there a library involved,
something like processing or any other libraries that tie into the visuals that
you guys are building? Thanks.
Just looking at Moonbird specifically, so we originally started with an SVG format,
and then we decided to call that and shift over to a raster image, so a bitmap,
just because we realized that people wouldn't be able to have the hexagons with their in-chain
birds, which I can see quite a few people have got now. And that just didn't feel like an acceptable compromise.
So yeah, everything is fully on-chain.
There's no external dependencies at all.
Awesome.
So we're going to get to the question.
Did I ignore part of it?
That answers your question, Outer?
You're another one who's one of the smartest people I know.
So it looks like... I'm getting hard. It's Outer as pleased're another one who's like one of the smartest people I know. So it looks like I'm getting hearts.
Outer is pleased.
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
I'm super excited.
This is great.
No, it's great.
Let's go to Dave.
Dave, my guy, we'll get you in here, and then we'll go punter, Drew,
and then we'll probably wind down from there.
But Dave, GM.
GM, GM, nice to be here, guys.
Justin, Harry, great to hear from you today.
I mean, I'm super – I mean, I was always bullish on MinBirds and Proof.
And what you guys released around the in-chain stuff is just amazing.
I don't think everyone fully understands the potential of what you guys are doing
and the future impact it's going to have.
Like what I love about what you guys are doing is you're truly moving the space forward,
which is unbelievable.
Like it's just like my mind is spinning in terms of all the possibilities of what you
guys are doing.
And it's almost like when I think about Justin, your art and your creativity, and I think
about your tech team, like Harry and everybody else else it's like it's almost very similar in that um it's like we're
watching a canvas getting developed from a technical point of view as well we're seeing
all these building blocks come together in terms of potentially how this is going to land and I
think it's just incredible so kudos to you guys I'm I'm super bullish um I was gonna I was gonna also, I think, the fact that you mentioned that you guys talked about, you know, the Dow and how you guys are so supportive of, you know, the communities.
I think that's super awesome. I think what you guys are doing is almost like it's very similar to like if you think about the traditional Web2 tech space, when you think about big companies like Microsoft, Google, Apple, Amazon, all of that kind of stuff, one of the reasons why they're so successful is they build things as reference architecture, as, you know, standards, but then they rely on their, what they call their partner network to actually help bring that to the masses, bring new ideas,
innovate on top of what you guys.
And I think that's effectively what you guys are doing,
which I think is super awesome.
I don't know if that's how you guys are thinking about this,
because ultimately you're promoting and creating a forum like the DAO and everything like that in terms of creating a kind of partner network that's just going to reference your standards
to really, you know, make this just grow phenomenally and just in the space and just
become just, you know, so, you know, well known. But anyways, I was curious, like, is that some
of the thinking you have, like similar to what we've seen in other companies?
Or is it something different?
Speaking purely from a tech perspective, that is exactly what we're trying to do.
And something I want to kind of make sure that we're clear on is from what we've done with the way that we're creating images within the contracts, this is not brand new.
You know, we have not broken new ground. This is not brand new. We have not broken new ground.
This is not the first collection to do that.
There are many who've come before us
who've done it in all kinds of different ways.
We're kind of building on and contributing
to kind of a really dynamic, exciting part of this NFT world.
One thing that we are trying to do, though,
is whenever we build something like this
with what dave has done with his uh data image sort of data processing pipeline um with the work
that we used to do as divergence when we were putting together smart contracts and like i know
the dutch auction that we built for the first proof drop and we've tried to always build that
in a way that we can put out there for other people to use and to build on and so maybe not
creating new standards as such but certainly taking the work that we're doing and putting out there for
the community to benefit from and build on. And then, you know, we can in turn build on what they,
you know, create on top of that. So that's very much our intent and approach to working
collaboratively in the space. That's awesome to hear.
Because I think it's very similar to like,
when you think about Apple, Microsoft,
like a lot of what they do too is not,
like when you think about what they've done,
they didn't make things,
like they didn't make the first phone.
They didn't make the first app store.
They just took a lot of these ideas.
They made it better.
They made it easier.
They made it more accessible, right?
And I think similarly, that's kind of what you guys are doing or what I think you guys are doing.
So that's awesome to see.
Also, CryptoKitties turned five today, you guys.
Happy birthday, CryptoKitties. Major, major contributors to the space.
Yeah, that's a big one.
Outer sent me that DM and I was like, fire. Go ahead, Harry.
No, I was going to say that thing.
If you think about how long most of us have been in the space and how short a time it has been since it was anywhere near as thriving as it is today,
five years is a huge amount of time.
So, yeah, very cool.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Very cool.
And great answer, and I appreciate that and appreciate you, Dave, as well.
Let's go to Punter.
Punter, get back in here.
Hey, thanks, Steve.
Justin, Harry, thanks so much for your valuable time today.
You know, getting time with folks like yourself to just hear from you and ask questions.
It's just a testament to how incredible this space is. You don't get
access like this in other industries. So really do appreciate it. It's not a tech question. I want
to maybe take things in a little bit of a different direction. And this may be for Justin.
But Harry, feel free if Justin's not available to speak. I think everyone's questioning the value
in NFTs right now as we go through the current market situation.
And I feel like chapter one, potentially, of NFTs will be spoken about as the PFP craze, right?
But I know proof is huge into art.
Like, you guys just got back from Marfa and doing stuff with Artblocks and, of course, Gremplin.
ARFA and doing stuff with Artblocks and, of course, Gremplin.
So, Justin, I would be curious to just pick your brain as to how do you view the next
wave or the next phase of NFTs?
Do you feel like artwork is going to come to the forefront?
Do you feel like we're going to see another PFP craze as we onboard the masses?
the masses. I'm just wondering what the meta is there.
I'm just wondering what the meta is there.
Ooh, I'm probably not the most equipped person to pontificate on exactly where the future of it
all goes. But I will say, I think everybody's right now having to rewrite a little bit. I think
we're having to think about what are the innovations that we're kind of putting forward.
And I don't know if I think it's all going to be one meta, to be honest. I think that we're kind of putting forward. And I don't know if I think it's all going to be one meta, to be honest.
I think that we're seeing right now major disruptions happening across a multitude of
industries, but a lot of these are going to take time to actually be able to do.
It's been a couple of years since a lot of these projects have really come into the forefront.
And it's just like pronouncing NFTs dead when it's so early and it's so new is so silly. Like some of these things are
going to take so much time to really kick off. Like, you know, you have projects that are like,
like Jenkins, that's like, they're investing heavily into, uh, into storytelling and they're
doing it in a public way. And I think like, you know, you can, you can laugh all you want about
whether or not you liked their first attempt at PFPs, but, but at the end of the day, it was a bold swing and it didn't work out for them.
But at the same time, guess what?
I'm sure if you saw any studio's first work, if you saw any comic book author's first comic,
any writer's first novel, it probably looked very similar.
We're working here and it's fast-tracked and it's public and everybody can see it.
It can be a little daunting and a little transparent.
And there's a lot of people that are looking for opportunities
to potentially get around and laugh at what's going on.
But I think we're going to see some really bold swings in storytelling.
I think art is going to continue to do really awesome things.
I think generative art is going to continue to be really an exciting space
to continue growing in.
We'll see more marketplaces, I'm sure,
that'll continue to be able to do unique things. You're going to have more technologists that are going to open source
technology, just like Divergence has done with some of their tech. So to me, I don't know if I
see one meta, and I don't know if predicting a meta is something that I feel qualified to be able
to do. But I do see people getting deeper into these things, understanding more about art,
telling more stories about why the art is significant, why it's important, why certain shows have been curated the way that they are. We talk
about this a lot with Proof. When we put on Grails, how do we get into the story of what this piece
is, why it was created with intention, why we sought out this artist and why we believe that
they're a great fit for this project? How do we ensure that we get them their full credit by being
able to talk through some of that stuff and provide the context, provide the nuance. And I think the space is going to continue to explode
in some awesome ways. It's going to continue to enable people to self-publish in all kinds of
industries and mediums. And honestly, the democratization of some of these things,
breaking down the walls, the barriers, and the gatekeepers out of some of these spaces. Sure,
there's going to be some projects you don't like. There's going to be some art you think is bad.
But also, we're going to see incredible people
break through these things
that if they had to go the traditional route,
may not have had the opportunity
to do some of these things.
So for me, I'm just excited.
I truly, truly believe that brilliance
is equally distributed within the world.
I think opportunity is not.
And I think the more we can do
to elevate that conversation and get more people to be able to make these things and create
opportunities for them, I think it's a win for the whole world. Let's go. Thanks for that. I,
to steal from Captain, I think I want to run through a brick wall after that. And, you know,
your enthusiasm is infectious. So thanks for that reply. And I'll kick it back to Steve.
Yeah, I think really well stated there. An important thing to point out, I've mentioned
building in public and people forget how new these businesses are. If people had seen the
first iteration of Uber, it wouldn't have been successful. It would have been flooded into the
ground and called a rug pull. But they did things different. They did things behind the scenes and
they were able to build and have a go to market product. And, you know, what you said there, Justin, brain trust, where they would invite people in from all different levels of Pixar
who would give unsolicited fair feedback, and it would make it better.
Like the first iteration of Up or the first iteration of Incredibles or you name it
weren't what they were today.
They got better through feedback, through understanding,
and I think that's one of the reasons why earlier I honed in on,
you know, I know Justin was saying, like, I could be better at it.
Justin is somebody who I think is a leader in taking feedback in a way that is thoughtful and understanding like look
people are critical when it makes sense and and sorting through it so um you know i think it's
important as we go through this iteration that everything is is a work in progress and it can
always continue to improve based on that feedback and i think proof has done a particularly great
job on on all of those fronts. So with that,
I want to throw to drew the barman and then we will kind of close it
down after we've gotten so much great time from Justin and Harry,
just as,
as a,
I'm going to put it in your mind.
I am probably going to harass you to come on this show again,
just to hear your background and your personal story,
because you're so like incredibly thoughtful and the way you approach
things.
And I remember I was like gripped by how you were talking about the in-chain
concept during future proof.
So just, just be aware.
I may be in your DMS kind of bugging you to come on again,
because I'd love to hear about your overall background when we have,
when we have time another morning, but you know, so, you know,
if you, if you potentially would be up for that.
Absolutely. It's not even morning for me.
So I'll be awake and caffeinated and ready to go
oh right on you have the jump on us i love that um let's uh let's go let's go to drew and then
we will uh we'll close down good morning uh thank you uh steve and thank you for steve captain uh
the kind words about the irl events it's always uh fun to hear that everybody loves stuff um and
thank you for asking and i just heard you say you're
going to get Harry's, for origin story. I've been around in spaces and in the parliaments,
whatever way we have around Justin for just about a year now, and I did not know his origin story.
And that was just a real joy to listen to. So thank you guys for asking that
question. And thank Justin for standing out there. I hope you have socks now out there in the cold
and answering. I was able to move inside. People started waking up. Good. And then I'm going to
make one comment. I'll let Steve take it back and close out. Justin when you said you know about the people talking about
oh you know we're two quarters out or you know six months out as somebody who only has built in
non-tech okay and non uh real world uh stuff the the if somebody tells if I hear oh and and in
three weeks we're gonna have this or even two months, or whatever, it's BS.
I mean, to build anything real, you know, six months is lightning.
I mean, I'm doing it right now, right, with the gin.
I mean, you guys, it's lightning speed.
You have to know people.
You have to pull change.
The fact that you guys are building as quickly as you're building.
So when you tell me, oh, first quarter, we're going to talk about this,
or this will be next summer, you know what that tells me?
Oh, they're actually building something.
This isn't some kind of hype train.
This is real world.
Something's going to come of it.
So I just wanted to tell you that there's a whole bunch of us that know that,
and those that don't, you know,
it might not be the project for them to be involved in
because you guys are really
doing something. So that's all I want to say. I want to thank you for that. Make sure you knew
there's community members, lots of us that understand that you're building real stuff
and time is not of the essence. So that's it. I appreciate that. My only push is just that I
think like anything, like there's, there's a degree of truth in both sides of that.
There are probably ways in which we could meter communication about what's coming and
doing it in a way that I think is a little more appropriate to the amount that we need
to highlight, but also put that same level of pressure on us to say, hey, if this is
going to take a long time, what is going to happen along the way? And how do we make sure that we're engaging about what
are the small wins that are going to happen while this is going on? The last thing that we want to
do is say, oh, we're in build mode, bury our heads in the sand and not try to engage the way we have.
And I think honestly, we get fair feedback of like, hey, being present would be really helpful
during the season. Yes, you're building a lot. Yes, being present would be really helpful during the season.
Yes, you're building a lot. Yes, some of those things are like the unsexy, not pixel stuff.
It's infrastructural backend work. Great. Talk to us about it. Tell us like what's going on,
how you're building and make sure that there are check-ins and you can at least talk about what
you're mapping to your projections of where you're going, especially when they were so far out.
I really appreciate you saying that, Drew. I really absolutely do. And I do hear you on that one. But just know, too, that like, it's not lost on us,
that we're not perfect at this when it comes to communication. And so absolutely, we listen to
that. And we love that you're here for the long haul and sort of understand what it means to do
that. But I also know that some people haven't necessarily been a part of a very long term
building, you know, kind of what we alluded to before with Uber.
How long it took Uber to really get, you know, a market share here took a very long time.
It wasn't, you know, six months.
And so absolutely, we think we can be better, though.
We think we absolutely can.
We think we can meet people in the middle somewhere.
We think we can still share that long-term vision stuff, but do it in a way that feels more appropriate for how quickly the space moves.
Heard and totally agree.
So love it and look forward to riding the ride with you
and see you in Miami.
This is awesome.
I just want to say I can't express enough gratitude
to Justin, to Harry.
I see Stevie in the audience
Stevie uh you're not you're not getting off the hook at some point we're gonna bother you to come
on as well just because um you know you're obviously a great community builder and your
energy is through the roof from a vibes perspective when I got to meet you in LA it was awesome so
uh don't think you're off the hook as well I'm a fan of the entire sort of proof team and what
y'all are building there um But I can't say thank you
enough. Again, like,
Justin's somebody I've looked up to since I sort of
started discovering him in this space
just because I think he embodies a lot of the things
I try to also do from a
positivity perspective and
from just being such a great builder
and being so thoughtful
and authentic. You know,
Harry is obviously brilliant as well as such a hard worker
and trying to think outside the box and do things differently.
Learning the backgrounds of Justin today and future,
like put a bookmark in learning the background of Harry in the future,
I think is something we're looking forward to.
But just great.
And congratulations on what y'all did.
Appreciate you guys acknowledging the past as well.
Y'all acknowledged what's been done,
but also you're putting your own spin on it,
which I think is so cool.
Just excited for the future of Proof,
for the future of Moonbird,
for the future of what this whole ecosystem holds.
I remember one of my buddies who's new to NFTs,
one of the very first things I said to him when he was in was,
you know, he's like, well, what should I pick up?
I'm trying to figure out what space I want to play in.
And I told him, go get yourself an oddity.
Because, you know, he wasn't, you know, in the Moonbird market yet.
He couldn't get a Moonbird.
He couldn't get a proof pass.
But I said, get an oddity.
He came to the event in L.A.
He was blown away.
He had an amazing time.
So just really fortunate to be, you know, have the opportunity to get to know y'all, to have you on this morning, to learn more
about what you're working on and to sort of, you know, everybody I think in our audience knows how
I feel about Moonbirds Improve, but hearing it directly from y'all, I think is just so helpful,
so valuable. So thank you for your time this morning. Appreciate you all coming on. And
And anything else that I missed that y'all wanted to hit before we let you go after two hours, Justin or Harry?
anything else that I missed that y'all wanted to hit before we let you go after two hours,
Yeah, just the one thing you missed is just honestly my appreciation for the show y'all run.
I mean, I think it's awesome.
And it's, you know, I wake up very early to go to the gym.
So usually I get there at like five.
I've just kind of made it a habit of just kind of listening to y'all in the morning.
of just kind of listening to y'all in the morning.
But I think I just really appreciated the voice
and the perspective that y'all have offered
and really truly trying to seek out,
you know, what people are building
and really kind of meet them where they are,
tell good stories and the hard questions
absolutely happen.
And I truly appreciate that.
But honestly, there's a tremendous amount of work
it takes to commit to doing these things.
And so I just want to recognize y'all
as builders and storytellers in this space and
just mega, mega grateful for the space today. It really meant a lot.
No, thanks for coming by. We appreciate it. With that said, again, appreciate the time and
appreciate everybody who showed up this morning, especially the 111 of you still here. I know we
went up and down, 300, 200, whatever it may be. The 111 people
in this room, you could have spent your morning anywhere. You spent it with us. You stuck through
it. We appreciate it. It means the world to us. Like seriously, like I can't say that enough.
So, you know, really energizing conversation this morning. We will be on tomorrow. We'll have some
giveaways going on tomorrow as well. You know, we'll probably talk about gratitude and things
we're grateful for as we go through just because
Thanksgiving, I think the things to be thankful for are something we can discuss.
We'll be on Friday.
So if you need something to do, whether it's get away from your family or pregame before
your family, we're here for that to give you your daily dose of NFTs so you don't have
to talk about it over the Thanksgiving table.
So thanks to everybody who stopped by.
And for our international listeners, obviously, we want to be here as well.
Thanks to everyone who stopped by this morning.
We will talk to you bright and early at 8 a.m. tomorrow morning.
Have a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful day, everybody.
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welcome to the future
