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Talk Is Cheap 🙄 (1st place edition)
Recorded: March 31, 2026 Duration: 5:23:34Space Recording
Full Transcription
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
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oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
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Sup? Ah, chilling, man. Just, just touching the little grass. Did a couple laps, like a,
like about a kilometer and a half. Hold on just a second. I'm, I'm putting on my headphones
and shit. Totally. Take your time. Let's see. Okay. What a box, Lord. Who? What's up, everybody?
Holy shit! I took an additional day off yesterday. It felt so good. I didn't want to get out of bed,
dude. I've been lagging on getting out of bed. Yeah. I guess I've been. Maybe you needed it.
You know what I'm saying? Oh, 100 percent. 100 percent. Good. You can't.
You can only wake up at three o'clock in the morning and go to bed at fucking 10 o'clock
at night every day for so long, dude. Till you start just crashing. That's what I'm saying, man.
Yeah, yeah. Shout out to sick. I see you sick. What up, sick? Yeah, that's the way, bro.
You don't want to get like burnout or anything like that. It happens to the best of us.
You know what I mean? Yep. And that's when, when you feel it, that's when you take a step back
and you realize, hold up here, I'm not a machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hold on a second.
Let me see who. What the hell? Hold on, Riley. Let me see. Hold on. Somebody just sent me a message.
Sure. That was just Demos. Okay, motherfuckers. Good motherfucking morning. It is a later day than,
later hour than usual, but we're still here. Thank you for fucking recording my spaces that
I don't even record, and motherfuckers be posting it on their own little banter fud bullshit.
Go fuck yourselves. I said, dude, I woke up yesterday and I saw that shit. I was like, I ain't even.
I, I'm gonna stay right here in this nice, comfy, warm ass bed, memory foam. You know,
I got everything going on. TV. I ain't even gonna get up to argue with this shit. Fucking retards.
They even, they even want me to stop doing this shit. They, they, they can't just fud
their own protocols and their own bag. They're trying to fud me too. Fucking bitches. Haters.
God damn. Fucking. Like I give a fuck. You know. For real, but yeah, no. Holy shit,
I got a lot of stuff too. No, but we're good, man. We're good. Thank you
for the free free publicity. Shout out to Charles for pulling in the space the other day.
That was fire. Can't even lie. That was amazing. I was looking in on that. Fucking awesome.
I love how he kind of just came through like that. You know, people really. They, I think, nowadays,
I think people are appreciating it more because you got to talk. You can talk to a guy.
That literally engineers blockchains. You know what I mean? That's kind of like.
That's top level shit there. Just launched the whole fucking blockchain just like that. Yeah, no,
it was fun and it's uh amazing. It's nice to just like chat with the dude, man. Chop it up.
And then he was like, "It's launching in two hours." I'm like, "Oh fuck, we got alpha.
" That was a good moment, man. I love that. I wish it was recorded though. I know. I like.
I hate recording the spaces because I don't. You know. But then motherfuckers are doing it,
so might as well record my spaces if all these idiots are just posting up and anonymous shit
and just recording the yeah or clipping it in a weird way without content. Yeah, totally. Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. I need this motherfucker shit right here. Oh my god. More.
It's it's always the non-recorded spaces where like sometimes it's like the best space. It is.
That's how it goes. No, that's a hundred percent how it goes. Wow. But yo, what's up, Demos?
Shout out to Boxer. Shout out to Riley says that he's still in the plane. Need a shower.
I tell a stink, bro. Yeah, you probably do. Shout out to my bro. I fucking yeah!
I can't wait for him to pull up. Um, let me see. Computer. What's oh my god?
Here we got Helmer directly from Canada. About to go to Greece or some shit. We go chase some.
Let's go. Ah, Greece. It's awesome, man. I gotta go there someday. What's up, Helmer?
That's on the list. No, let's go. Let's go. What up? Just trying to find a shirt. Yeah, man.
Just uh, did you do another Cardano meetup? What? Did you do another Cardano meetup? When?
I don't know. You were just talking about fucking traveling, you know? Oh no no no no no no!
Last uh Sunday, I just hosted a space. Today's Tuesday. Took a break. Took an extra day off Monday.
And um, well, from my regular life, I don't consider this like a duty to me or anything. I just um.
I just do this at the same time as I do my my IRL work because I can and it's like fine. Yeah,
passes time makes things go quicker. Yep. You still in the cannabis industry, Yasko? Yep.
You smoking weed now? Yeah, yeah. Like I I've been smoking weed. I've been smoking weed.
I think honestly, the first time I smoked weed since like the whole incident was probably in L.A.
Like I mean, at Las Vegas with you guys. Oh dang! Yeah, man, you took me back on the devil's list,
but it's all good. Cause I've I've been doing it. I've been doing it smartly.
I I haven't been like smoking two grams of shatter at once, which was a good idea. No,
that's how I fucking ended up in psychosis, and that's why I took a break for a bit. Damn. Yeah,
cause I smoked two grams of like one sitting. It's fucked. I'm gonna be going hard. But anyways,
shut off the phone. See. So what's new now that Midnight is is up? Is my bags pumping?
I haven't even gone and looked, or or did everybody dump the news? As per usual.
What is Midnight by the way? It's like a. Um, it's a good question. I I haven't even been in
Cardano, like I'm sorry, man. I haven't even been in crypto. Oh, Midnight is another blockchain.
It's a. Oh really? It's not Cardano. Privacy shit. It's a Cardano partner chain. Okay, fair enough.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But um, yeah man. You know what sounds fire? Fucking smoothie.
That's what sounds delicious. In other news, Decentraland finally made it to Epic Games.
You want some? You got some Metaverse plots? It might go up in price. Okay, everything here is good.
That coin piece. Your Esco, I have a question for you. Did you ever get your hands on a chinchilla,
baby chinchilla? Nah, bro. Oh man, what? You got? You almost got a baby chinchilla. Oh no!
Didn't you send me one? You have a dojwaler, yeah, yeah. Ah, you already did that, bro.
You sent me one. I got one. If you have a dojwal, if you have a dojwal,
then you definitely have a baby chinchilla. Yeah, dude, I remember. I did it in the fucking space.
Like we did it in in the space. Good, good. I'm just making sure
because I don't want to spoil anything. But I think I'm gonna make it to
where like each baby chinchilla you hold is like a raffle into getting a corporate space chinchilla.
Oh my god! Here you come with a damn Fonzie again. He said, "Baby." It's not Fonzie, yo. He said,
"Baby chinchilla become an astronaut, chinchilla. They go to the moon together, chinchillas." Bro,
shit! It's not a fucking Ponzi, bro. Hit it, hit it, bro. Yeah, just do it, bro. Fuck it.
Give me a damn space to chinchilla too. Fuck him. Yo, Escor, you're gonna have to pay
a thousand bucks if you want to. Oh, you see what I'm saying? You see? Holy shit! Yo, what's up,
Bamba? Yo, yo, what's up? I'm on my way to picking up my girl. We're getting some free pasado.
You're getting Bamba. It must be nice being in the same fucking country as your girl, man. Fuck.
He said free pasado. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Considering the situation, yeah. From tomorrow,
you cannot eat like regular dough. Yo, hold on. Let me ask you something. Let me ask you something.
Why the hell do you guys got so many damn restrictions for shit? Is that like part of like the Bible
that says about like you cannot eat bread from this time to this time or something,
or whatever you call your your Bible? Sorry, it's not a law. Yeah. Be honest. At this, no, no,
it's it's not ignorant. It's just like at this uh the specific issue. I think it's more symbolism.
More than anything, so like the Exodus, getting out of Egypt was a serious deal,
and like it's one of the most important thing to memorize. So we do it in many, many ways,
and that's one of them. So like there is even like drinking wine with a tilt to the left.
Like there's a lot more weirder ones than this one. Oh, he said you can't drink wine
unless you tilt it to the right, bro. Yeah, the hell is going on, man. That's funny. But anyways,
what else? Yo, Esco, I have a question. Did I drink in Las Vegas when I went to Vegas? I don't know,
cause I can't remember. I can't, dude. If you can't remember how I'm, I fucking wait. Helmer,
were you in Vegas the last time? No, no, no. No, not last time. Like fucking two, three times ago.
I don't fucking know. Yeah, several years ago. Several years ago, yeah, yeah.
All I know is we had fun. And I was here, man. Was it the first? It was the first.
It was called NFT XLV. I don't know what the fucking call. No, I don't know. Um. Yeah,
there was an there was CNFTCon before that. I think like two years or maybe a year. Yeah, I didn't.
I didn't go to CNFTCon. Me neither. And then that one year that it was renamed to NFTXLV. Yeah,
I went there. That's the one that we went. And then there's been like rare evos since that shit.
Okay, fine. Hell yeah. Um. Anyways, man, I remember smoking weed for the first time and in like
several years, and I felt good. And then now it's just been a slope. You guys put me on the slope.
Oh, nice! We got the fucking. This is so cute. My girl just like lines up all the bills for me. Oh,
not doing that right now. You know what I'm saying? Like electric, water, sewage, internet,
all this shit, just like nicely aligned on the kitchen table. My God, my God, just hit it. Alright,
that's cool. I gotta peel off because I want to watch a YouTube video.
I'm watching Diary of a CEO right now, so take it easy. I, I, I, I.
Yo Bamba, you're picking up your shorty and hunkering down or something? To her,
and then another ten, fifteen minutes to the restaurant. So from tomorrow there will be
no more pastas, no more. So we're gonna go binge some some raviolis, some fettuccine alfredos,
some Caesar salads. You know, get nasty. Yeah, it's funny. Like, let's go sin, baby. Till tomorrow.
Let's go. Yeah, yeah. Actually, hey, did you see? Did you see? Yeah, that's why this is
the first place edition space, man. Ah, yeah, yeah. He's gonna join soon. He's pretty busy now,
but he's gonna join soon. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But we're gonna plug it in also,
like the whole wizard thing. Oh, now you now you just swoop this shit, man. That's fine though.
Fucking revenue. We need revenue. No, it's just for fun, you know. But that's something that
we already planned back in. Yeah, I think that that was the ship from Vegas, right, or something.
Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fire. How are you gonna put it in there?
Kind of like as a game, like obviously the the order book. Exactly. Okay. Cool.
Kind of like as an attraction thing, customer acquisition thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Like very low barrier. You know, nothing to extract from anybody. Yeah,
known like crazy because then people get more hooked on that than the other shit. Yeah, yeah,
we seriously need to chill with casinos and crypto space. Like it's diluted everybody that's
that could have been meaningful in this space. Yeah, and we need to stop with the dexes, man.
Cardano has thirty, thirty-eight dexes and ten million in liquidity. Like what the fuck?
To be honest, I'm good with dexes as long as they're like, and I'm sorry for using that word,
but as long as they're like composable, like if I can interact with the orders
or liquidity inside of each dex. Right, right, right. Because otherwise, it fractionalizes
that liquidity. I get what you're saying. If they're composable, then every it's ultimately
like sharing liquidity, and then at that point, you're competing based on like experience, benefits,
yields, and and all sorts of other things that are more meaningful than just like locking up
liquidity. For example, you know like. Just min swap. I think if Cardano had far more liquidity,
then it wouldn't be such a big deal. But here we are, and like the majority of the liquidity
is there, right? Which I mean, they've worked for it. They've been here for a fucking bunch
of years. Can't really talk shit. But you're right. Um, yeah, the liquidity is not reachable. Yeah.
So for me as a trader, like it's good to arbitrage between dexes. It's like the easiest way
of kind of doing like low amount, high frequency kind of trading. But yeah,
like as long as there is that possibility exists, I'm down with it. But at the current design,
like yeah, we have. Too many dexes, but I don't think it's that impactful. Like, like you said,
I think what like sixty percent of the dominance goes to men swap, and the other thirty percent
maybe between Sunday splash and wingriders, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not that deep. Like,
there's not that deep of competition. Like, if it's enough for you to work today with like men swap
and Sunday, and it's enough. Yeah, but one thing to do. Is that like I remember
when they were going from like Plutus V one and then to Plutus V two contracts
and shit that like migrating liquidity is also like impossible or something because they're in
the contracts, right? So people actually have the the the liquidity and for for which oh
for any decks, yeah. So they need to migrate the liquidity, right? Yeah.
That's that's that's the biggest hassle there is. Like we with even with Wizard,
like we really took it into design. So when we have a billion limit orders already posted on
the order book. We don't. If we're gonna add a new dex to support, like we don't need to migrate
any liquidity. We can just kind of plug it in. Um, but yeah, that's that's unfortunate.
That's gonna be a hassle. But I know a couple dexes here that are actually cooking.
Like Pi already shown Sugar Rush and Builder Fest, and that that shit is legit.
And like that's for real. Like that's the kind of stuff I wanted Midgard for. But seeing that
Sugar Rush is gonna be a product that's gonna do it already on on Cardano. And yeah,
that's that's expected to like this year. So, and I know other stuff they're cooking.
I cannot talk about it, but definitely on the Dex scene, we're we're getting to a to a spot
where we can actually be more focused on scaling and offering better better trading experiences.
Yeah, what you're saying is that the user experience is like coming along very much, very much so.
Like we should be in par with any application in the industry. I think in the next five months.
And this is after Layeros. After Layeros, we're gonna be like, we're gonna have much higher TPS than
Ethereum Layer One. So what has been the issue? Well, besides Layeros, for Cardano
that the fucking user experience was shit. I think it's over overrated, like the user experience.
Yes, you cannot do like high frequency stuff, but in reality, like you don't need that much of TPS.
Like a hundred thousand TPS, it's not. Something realistic, like the the real world,
like to to finance the whole U.S. Economy, you need like ten thousand TPS.
So we don't need to go that crazy. Um. So from a TPS perspective, we were a little bit limited,
but it wasn't our real issue. The issue here was number one, like you said,
liquidity got fragmented, like a lot of decks competing to lock their TVL instead of pools that
nobody can interact with. Outside of the dex itself, so that was an issue. But I, in my opinion,
like me going to Cardano is like, hey, I want to trade XRP, I want to trade Link,
I want to trade Bitcoin, I want to trade all of these other assets,
and all like now you have also RWAs and commodities that are coming on chain,
and for me that's missing, like uh, cause cause I'm mostly sorry, cause I'm mostly using like
DeFi to to trade and stuff, and for me needing to have like another wallet
or needing to use Hyperliquid or or another chain to trade for that, it's unfortunate.
I think we we should we can have we should and we can have everything here. Uh,
so this is like more of a business development
again issue because integrating these assets over shouldn't take that long.
Did I rug?
No, you're good. We can hear you. Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, I sure can.
I'm just quiet because I'm driving. For a second, go for it. Oh no, so I just I had to like get out
of my house. Um, the Wi-Fi and shit. Excuse me. Um, but now I I mean a lot
of things are coming along that are making things more possible. So it's it's not like there was
an engineering problem in the past. There was just literally like probably primitives
and things like like now you're gonna be able to have all sorts of markets because you have
the Pith feed, right? And that's like very very significant, in my opinion.
Layer zero, all these things. Hopefully soon they they all can converge.
Yeah, yeah, they will. They will. And and to be honest, like we don't need all of these to have them
on chain. Like I don't know why nobody of the entities like thought, hey,
we we should have here at least a chance to have to grab most of the top one hundred market share,
and we literally have none of it. Like wait, hold on, explain that. What do you mean market share
or the top one hundred markets again? Exactly. Yeah. So again, when I'm going to Hyperliquid,
I have these, I have like all of these options open to me to tap into all of these markets to tap
into, and here was very, like, stubborn to stay niche with just a CNT ecosystem
and not branching out to where everybody is trading, which is mostly Bitcoin, Ethereum, XRP,
and the other top 100s. And we trade all of them. Bro, Cardano's very ethos has been fucking hella
cold, like, fuck, you know, insane to the point that. Every pair in Cardano was against ADA,
not like a stable coin like the rest of the industry, bro. Like so many fucking backwards ass shit.
Ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. I don't understand like why not to give the best chance for this ecosystem
to to have more on chain activity. Like yes, I'm not I'm not saying like if we're gonna bring now
native XRP or whatever to Cardano, everything is gonna change. Obviously,
USDCX it's much more important integration, but we still should have all of these markets to access
from Cardano if we would like to. It's it's unnecessary to use another blockchain to just trade
another token. I firmly believe that there is a massive cold war this whole time still going on
amongst the fucking founding entities, and we are just fed this like
cute little redemption picture thing. Think all that shit came from the fact that they almost all
lost everything because if the chain would have gone down, all their bags would have been
absolutely fucking worthless, and they found themselves in common interest for once
in a very long time. But nonetheless. There's still still things continue to occur,
and I still I still continue to see things in in the timeline that tell me that they they fucking
can't stand each other, except unless it's like some sort of financial mutual interest.
Like for example, let's just point out. I think it was Nojek or something.
He posted so he posted like YLCF. Where's that A figure? There, where's that A figure liquidity?
Oh no no no no! Great tweet by the way. Yeah no he like something like that
and Charles was involved in the thread and Charles was like go ask CF and then yeah no it was
Charles's original tweet and then he replied with that and then he's like go ask right and then
but and then the thing is that okay and let's keep I need you guys's opinion I'm not coming to
any conclusion this is a question what do you think the the logic may be behind adding one million
as a foster liquidity to USDA actually I I'm I don't know. I'm asking, dude.
What arbitrage opportunity? What is the fucking purpose of that? Like, oh,
God forbid that it would benefit the people that they're in cold war with, sort of thing.
You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? Because it routes through like night
and all these other things. It's just ridiculous, bro. I see it every day, and and unless, and no,
Carano is just fucked. Carano is just fucked because at the very top they're just like they.
Out of touch. Just out of touch. Out of touch and negative towards each other, bro.
They're literally like do the illogical thing to not benefit each other. That's just the facts.
We see it on the timeline all day every day. Then I saw K Tours pose
this whole fucking long ass thread. Yes, that's another exhausting thread.
People people saying that CF doesn't do anything, and then they just post a like giant thread
of like very basic bullshit shit that CF should be doing, and calling it like they're doing this
like immense amount of shit for Cardano. Like, bro, that's like that should be bare minimum.
What the fuck do you do? Like what? Oh yeah, we maintain the Rosetta Stone and like that.
If those are not the common things you should be doing, then what the bare minimum?
Then then what the fuck should? It really is. Oh yes, I'm so glad. No,
I would like somebody to actually explain to me the situation with Immortal better,
because like that was that's a little bit the one more concerning to me.
With what CF is just like what what what is the situation? What do you want to know?
It might help you. Uh, I feel like I have reason to believe, like that they just sold out
long time ago, and oh, they sold out long long time ago, and financially,
I don't think they have anything to contribute to this ecosystem anymore. Like they they're not.
You ain't too far. It could be that you ain't too far. So this is what went down. At least,
you know we can plug in here more info. Well, originally it was IOG Foundation and attained,
and Mergo was nowhere even in existence. The sale, the the ICO or token Bauscher
or whatever you want to call it. That shit was sold under a name called Atain.
They facilitated that shit, and then later, and then after the initial sale and it's ended,
they got their three point something billion. IOG got like four point something billion.
The CF got like six hundred and eighty something million plus like eight thousand Bitcoin, bro.
And then Atain dissolved supposedly. Atain, why is my throat fucking raspy, bro?
Atain supposedly dissolved and magically became Emergo. So ultimately, from From the sale,
and I would say that this is probably was probably smart for them to shed all responsibility
of doing a token sale and all that type of stuff. They dissolved Atain and became Emergo,
and Emergo inherited. That's a you know what? That's a real good question.
Was it Atain that received the Emergo Ada before they became Emergo? Or did Immergo receive the ADA
that Atane was due before they dissolved? You see that? You see what I'm saying here? Um, yeah.
When when was that? But what year was like the transition between? Bro,
it was like right after the sale. Ah, no. So I don't think so. Like I think
they did transfer probably all the ADA. Right, but how can you dissolve a company
and then your next shell company receive the proceeds of what your original company did and earned?
And then now it's on your other company. You see what I'm saying here? So I don't know.
That's tricky there. And then also, I think Emergo legitimately on their books only has like
35 million ADA because that's what they took off from their own D rep delegation a little while ago,
and that is like little to nothing. But what is presumed is that they obfuscated a lot of their ADA
into not being considered Genesis, but it is in their possession. You get what I'm trying to say?
Yeah, they—they're the fault where we got dumped from three dollars. Not Charles. That's crazy.
I think all of them. I would have sold on your head too. Shit. Fuck. But what about the woke CF,
bro? If they have eight thousand Bitcoin, you know how transformative it could be to this ecosystem.
Um, they're—they're—they've been—they've sold it. I think
they only have like a thousand left. Even a thousand? Yeah, thousand is like a billion dollars.
They should. They should supply that. That I would like to see more than a fucking million USD A
on chain. Like I would like to say that at least like 500 Bitcoin, starting with a Bitcoin DeFi
from the CF, that would gain a lot of respect to me to them if they would utilize that. But yeah,
the USDA thing, bro. That's like the they're they're a nice team. I I met them.
Have nothing personally against them, but we're currently trying to incentivize something
that should bring more users to the chain, and it's not USDA. It's the USDCX.
So we should definitely do all the efforts to boost that, and then people can.
Do whatever they want. If they want to have better yields using other stable coins or Cardano,
they have that option. That's why it's there. But we need to boost the main thing,
which is the UDCX, and and currently on Cardano where you can mint USDCX,
or or you have to hold the ERC twenty version and then mint USDCX. Because I haven't minted yet.
Yeah, we got serious problems, my boy. But I mean, like those problems will continue to persist
because they don't like each other, bro. They they just don't. And everybody
underneath it will suffer for sure. At least that's just my opinion. I don't know if I rubbed,
but did you hear? Like, can we? Are we able to mint USDCX on Cardano without using
the ERC twenty version? I don't know. I think it isn't it native to Cardano. No,
I'm pretty sure we need to use USDC to mint USDCX. Yeah, I'm not too sharp on the technicalities.
That's a service for you there, Esco. Oh my God. No,
bro. I ain't doing none of that. I ain't doing none of that.
Where's everybody, man? Spaces be like. Cardano is just. Thank you. Just one. Yep.
Thanks. Enjoy. We'll see you next time. Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks. Um.
Uh, and and I and I think what you hear when I gave my whole spiel about the natural path
of migration that will occur if Cardano doesn't get its shit together, like a month ago,
you called it, man. I was about to answer your question. You asked, though, where is everyone?
They're everywhere else, Esco. Just not here. And I just want to ask. I was waiting.
When are you guys going to talk about the fact that Anthropic's whole source code got leaked today?
I have it on my local PC on a zip file. Billions of dollars worth of research and technology,
all at the fucking fingertips. It's crazy. You guys saw that? Definitely saw that.
I don't know what to do with source code. That's crazy. That's wild. I did not know that. Well,
you could just have your AI help you figure it out. But the neat thing is,
somebody already indexed all the information and and gave the TLDRs, of course,
of what it all means, what you can extrapolate from it. It's just quite neat.
But the really fucked up part is, bro, these motherfuckers got it done through a npm registry.
Like some, basically they they put it out to the open internet, and someone just basically sniffed
their way through their their source, their files, and found on some nerd shit
that I don't know about, and found their way into their source. And once they did,
they downloaded it all and then put it all on GitHub for everyone to. Ail sounds like that they're
dumb for doing all that. I mean, I don't know, bro. Do we get free clothes? I need free clothes. No,
we we get we make it so that everybody's basically China's licking their lips right now. So Kim,
I guess I'm going Kimmy next month because it's gonna be just as good.
That deep sea is gonna be way better now. Entropic stock is gonna go to zero.
I mean that that was inevitable. Like everybody can run their own LLMs on their local computer.
You don't need data centers like for 90 of use cases. Yeah, you can't have
a fucking garbage computer though. I mean, but that's also inevitable.
Like Nvidia hardware is gonna become cheaper every year. Like it's gonna be much easier to run
a trillion parameter model in your computer, with like too much sweat. Yeah,
they just recently solved are solving that dilemma, right, Bamba? That's why a lot of like RAM
and memory stocks were dropping because they have yeah more efficient.
That's like I don't understand. Maybe I'm not intelligent enough to understand the future,
but like I don't understand the whole rush for data centers and all the billions of dollars that
those AI companies are just wasting every day in in a in attempt for what?
Just to sell equity at the end, or is there something deeper?
It probably comes down to them wanting to have their own infrastructure to service
their own customers and not have to like pay AWS or something. I don't know. They're like,
oh my God, we're gonna have a big enough fucking user base that we can have about five of them,
and then we just keep all our own money. And in five years, it pays off. And after that,
we make like an additional seven trillion dollars a year. And they're like, yeah, do it. Yeah,
the thing is that there's no money, any even close to that. Like OpenAI is gonna launch at like
at minimum valuation of a trillion dollars. Like if that's not the easiest short in market history,
I don't know what is. I mean, you ain't wrong. But if it launches for a trillion dollars,
that means that Elon is going to get like a hundred more billion dollars. Oh yeah, no,
forget about the SpaceX IPO. Like that, that should be, that should be any minute. Like that,
that should launch, and I think they're doing really, really well with the raise for that one.
I know that because I'm kind of involved in the IPO. But yeah, that that shit is going to blast.
I think that actually has a use case, but maybe will be overvalued at the beginning,
like everybody else. Meanwhile, Coinbase is dying. Holy shit! Vadimos, how's your weekend, bro?
We're back at it. It's all the same. I'm starting on a Tuesday. Yesterday,
I didn't even want to get out of bed, bro. Like, no, sorry, bitches. But do you really think,
though, Coinbase will die? I don't think they will. I think they're going to be like
a custodial type of, you know, custody exchange. They kind of play both sides.
I think that's what they're doing, right? There. I don't think Coinbase will die, but the issue
that the issue that even though that he's being criticized like crazy,
I think the issue is very straightforward. Banks don't want to give you the yield that
you rightfully deserve because they want to rather keep it for themselves
and continue to lend it out and compound that for themselves, right? And that was an advantage
to the crypto space, to stable coins in the crypto space. And what's even crazier.
Is that the banks only have to have like ten percent of the reserve of the money that
they supposedly hold for you? As we're in crypto, every stablecoin has to be backed a dollar
to a dollar. So there is like massive undermining in the in this whole thing for the banks.
The banks would just seem like such an unfavorable institution if Brian Armstrong would have been
able to accomplish this yield thing and so on and so on. Because neo banks,
meaning all these like digital. Stablecoin shit. They would just be like
a hundred times more favorable not not only to their users, but also the economy itself.
When you have to have proof of reserves rather than only minimal reserve of ten percent,
you know shit like that. So it's a it's a war that the banks are not gonna lose because they got
far more money and far more leverage and lobby, and they're like in bed with the Federal Reserve
itself and all that shit. I see what you're saying. That was kind of like I that makes sense.
I hear you. That's a pretty good like way to look at it. Still, I also,
but I still do feel like it's kind of like one of those situations where it's like you know,
casinos versus traditional casinos versus gambling websites. They just got blown into the fuck out
of the water with the clat gambling websites. There's no need to go to a casino really anymore,
unless if you just like gambling in person. Do you know what I'm saying?
For like the guys that are yeah, that's why Vegas. That's why Vegas is dying. Yeah,
that's why I'm saying. Like I kind of look at it with. Banks is the Vegas in a way
with the crypto thing. I feel like over in the long run, I still feel entities like Coinbase,
for example, I'll just use them example, will probably end up winning large in the end.
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, so they may be dying somewhat right now,
or kind of going through the kind of the pits right now, if you will, or bearish little, you know,
a little downside right now for now. And like you, you see them, you see with the other ones too.
Like, not so much micro strategy, but like there was another one, another Bitcoin holding groups,
Bitcoin holding group was Nakamoto, and they're fucking they're they're they're they're in the red
right now, right? But you know. All of a sudden, like maybe a year or two from now,
things can totally change if they stick in there. You know, it's kind of a bit of, you know,
survival, if you will. But, but I think it's just fucking just good business planning.
If you know there's bear market cycles and shit, and we're in a kind of a little bit weird kind
of cycle right now, where it's kind of extended. You know, you just kind of had the game plan
and the strategy is to just hang in there, really, and then you'll probably do well.
It's kind of like how we're talking the other time about like ecosystems, like you know, Cardano,
and or like blockchains. And you know, when shit's kind of kind of not doing so well,
or they're getting you know, lack of user activity, you got to invest into that
and get the marketing going, get some projects going, incubate a bit, and you'll gain that.
Attraction when things do start going up again, you know what I mean? Because you did that work,
so you know I kind of look at that with the crypto versus banking. I think,
I think the crypto side of things we're fucking, you know, they're they're working every day,
and banks are kind of kind of kind of have to be. They're going to be kind of somewhat left behind,
and they're going to have to adapt to the game, the new financial game of the world. You know,
like it's like who said it? Who was saying? Oh, Sailor was saying it. He's like,
Bitcoin will become the global reserve, you know, currency. I think it's I think it's already
on its way there, like as a fucking, you know. It's internet currency,
so it's already kind of neutral. It's already independent and neutral of all this other bullshit.
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, so it's already being looked at like that by world government,
like superpowers. So you see Russia, you see even fucking Canada now. You know, can up here?
We've been so our government's been pretty anti crypto, the liberals, right? And so you know,
that's their that's whatever they they're looking at it like, oh, you know,
they can fucking use it for politics. They can use it for criminal stuff.
It's against the world banks and shit. But now they're starting to reverse on that. They're like,
hold on here. We're gonna get left behind, you know. The rest of the world's doing this.
We're gonna be looked at like a fucking. We're gonna even be more left behind than we already are,
you know. So they're starting to switch up on that. Even the biggest pension fund,
one of the one of the largest pension funds in Canada, bought micro strategy
when it was fucking cheap, you know. Like, and so it's like it's interesting to see the kind
of change up a bit in a way where you're starting to see. A change in thinking up here,
even with the banks, and they're like kind of they're steadfast where they're like, nah,
we don't want to sell crypto now. They're starting to look into it, you know.
They're starting to fucking wake up to it, and that's really good to see. Like Scotia Bank,
I heard some announcement about the Scotia Bank, and I was surprised about that
because I didn't think they were going to get into it for a while, like for
at least another five years or something like that. You know, I thought
it was going to be way later, but now they're starting to look into it,
so that's pretty cool to see. Like you're starting to see banks looking at it, like, hey,
why don't we sell it to our customers as a convenience? We can even maybe they're going to do it
as a custodial side of things. You know, they hold on to it and they get on your behalf. You know.
But that's if that's what people want, right? So there's going to be a lot of that happening in
the near future. I think you're going to see a lot of banks either adapting,
or they're going to be kind of left behind over time. You know, that's. I just want some treasury.
Demos, you want some treasury money? Jeez, I don't want anything. I don't want to work.
Asco catalyst. Yeah, dude. Gotta make a catalyst, bro. Don't worry. Apparently,
from what Google published, their paper, quantum computing will be taking all of it from us,
anyways. Yeah. That's the. That's it. That's it. But yo, Cardano. Post quantum, pre quantum.
Cardai will be quantum. They showed how it would take nine days to take out all the top wallets
on ETH. Just extract from all of them. It would only take nine days to break whatever code. Jesus.
That's incredible. Yeah, man, it's it's so important for future because there's already
quantum computing already. It's not like you know, and not and not to glaze the guy.
Sorry to very bullish, but this is another thing the old man Charles was speaking about way
in advance before everyone else caught up to where he was trying to get.
And they all called him a crazy kook and blah blah blah. Crazy Charlie, and he was right all along.
And what do you know? They're all as soon as he brought that up, I noticed.
We started seeing on the timeline. Oh, this foundation's doing some research. Okay,
and then these guys are. Oh yeah, Bitcoiners are talking about it. All of a sudden,
I saw that chatter too. You saw that too, eh, Demo? Yeah, bro. They pay attention to him. I'm like,
people don't realize that. This is what I was trying to say in previous spaces back a while ago.
This is like a year ago. I'm like, yo, you guys should respect this guy because you got kind of
like a Nakamoto guy in front of us, you know. And he's he's he's he's passionate enough
about it enough that he won't just stop. He's like fuck that. He's like fuck you.
I'm gonna keep on going. That'll just piss him off even more, you know. I love that.
That's why I kind of you know, that's why I fucked with Charles because I could tell
he was getting bullied a while back, and I'm like, yo, fuck these guys. You know what I mean? Like,
yeah, he's definitely the closest we have to a living, breathing, public-facing
cypher punk that that's literally, you know, like of the OG tribe. That's why I love it, man.
You know, we we can get access to him. Like he came into Astro Space Center. I was like,
fucking right off. And it's kind of like a nice little vibe there where we can just chat about
stuff, and it's not like adversarial or anything. We're not trying to, you know, like it's nice,
controlled. Like chat, where well, that's due to that's due to Asco's well, good hosting. Yeah, no,
yeah. There was a couple of bad guys trying to come up. He was even letting me know. He's like, "Yo,
demos, you better watch out." Yeah, bro, you got some attacker. You know, don't you? Got him.
Don't fuck around. Because yo, like honestly, he's. I've seen him get shit on in some other spaces
too, and I'm like, you fucking losers, you guys fucking. You know, he came. He came into your space.
Here's a here's this guy. He's like a fucking pioneer of crypto. And he chose to come into
your space, and you guys are kind of letting these guys kind of pop off on him.
It's like I got of course he's going to leave. You know what the best analogy of
how Charles was treated, like the best person in history to me, it must have been what
Edgar Allan Poe went through. Think about oh, without a doubt, he's in a time when no one can write,
or I mean, no one can even read. Here goes this man, just fucking an amazing scholar can read,
write, liturgical, just like incredibly smart. And these apes want to bash his head in every time
he opens his fucking smart mouth. Fucked. That's why I start kind of like sticking up for him
because I'm like these motherfuckers are just trying to like it's a it was a coordinated thing
by a particular group and you know there's a couple in that group that like a bunch
of them have chilled out since then right but I know some of them still kind of look at him
like that a bit you know what I mean they have that but most are cool now I could tell
because they're kind of not really doing that to him as much as it's
like they kind of got baited out you know what I mean but still you still have some
of those older cats that are you know from another community that are looking at him
and like oh he's a scammer it's like no he's not a fucking scammer he's a good actor actually.
If you guys actually paid attention, he could have fucked off a long fucking time ago, but nah,
he's he's stuck in there. He's passionate about it. It was there was like you know I think
we talked about in a previous space. Like the litmus test for me was when he was calling out
that bill. That was the most recent one. That was a good like. I don't know if people could tell,
but yo, for him to go out of his way, for him to go, which benefits him technically, and yeah,
and didn't benefit because you know he knows how these motherfuckers kind of they're like, oh look,
they're shitting on, he's shitting on us, but really, he's saying the right shit though. You know,
he's going out of his way. To the fucking you know to do that I was like damn this guy's
like a fucking cheat yeah because he's like look I'm good ADA's good XRP's good
but that means that everyone ever entering this this industry trying anything will be seen as
a security from day one day zero and he's sticking up for them and I'm like you guys you should
you guys should be thanking this guy pretty gangster yeah that's yeah like for a guy
that's just like you know crypto guy that's I was surprised by that so I was like damn like this guy
's like a real one like that he ain't just like you know he's
really passionate about it for real so I was like fuck. Gotta help them out, you
know. I might have a little choppy reception here, but bear with me. Oh, you're good, man.
We can hear you. Oh, in a sec. You mean you're going about to go to? Oh no, I haven't.
I haven't gone there yet. Okay. Haven't gotten to the choppy reception. Thank you for the warning.
Respect. All right, guys. Up top, I'm pinning billions of dollars worth of research and source code.
What it looks like, it's this cute little zip file right there, guys. I implore all
of you to download it just in case, so you can have a localized version of it just in case
on an attempt to get you know anything scrubbed off the internet. As an archival piece,
it's just pretty cool to say, damn, I own something Anthropic spent billions of dollars on. Fire.
When you first said it earlier, I thought you meant like they open sourced. I was like, no way,
but then I'm like, no way, some guy dissected it. No, it got leaked on. Yeah, like he kind of like,
yeah, he he thought. Riley, you're smarter than everyone on this matter. You want to come up here
and tell us what happened today, bro? Yeah, you get more technical about it,
like decompile their fucking shit. Home right now. That we can't hear you. That he's getting,
he's teleporting home. Yeah, he's teleporting right now. The stargate right now. Yeah, yeah, SG one.
Oh man!
Yeah, that quantum shit. Yo, what's good? What's good? What's good? I'm finally back in cold,
fucking shitty ass Seattle. How's everybody doing? Doing pretty good, Riley.
The asses just got flattered. I uh, I don't actually know. Like the so there was the Axiom uh thing,
Axiom, uh, and then there's the the Claude Code fucking leak, and both that stuff happened
when I was on the plane. I didn't really get too much sleep. I'm kind of tired, but oh, I bet yeah.
Apparently, it was leaked through their map file, um, through in their npm registries,
their node package package manager. So, but then, like, what was it? Just like,
you have this map file or or directory that contains all the source code, or what? Like, I don't,
I don't actually understand fully. But I haven't, I haven't really looked into it.
I fucking tried to get some sleep on the plane and struggled. Because my understanding is,
when you publish like an npm package. I mean, it's it's relatively easy to not reverse engineer,
but yeah, you're kind of reverse engineer the code, right? So I I don't know, um,
I don't know how they're blaming Axios for it because you could see that it it calls for
Axios import at the top there, so Axios apparently had a huge I saw that, yeah, which is I mean,
as long as you weren't auto updating, you were fine,
but people don't pin versions for some reason. Nobody likes to follow best practice.
I wish people in Seattle would just go the fucking speed limit, bro. Like,
you don't need to be going ten under on the fucking highway. There's barely any traffic.
Just fucking go. Is it true that when Google released that information,
they actually did it through like CKs and it was actually CKPs and it was actually like
selective disclosure was involved? Yeah, with the quantum shit. Yeah, with the quantum info.
That's my understanding. Yeah. Oh shit! So that's a leak. Champions. Yeah, we are the champions.
We are the champions, my friend. Boom! Boom! Boom! Clark actually fucking went ham.
I congratulations. I only contributed a very small amount. I fucking I went through his ike
and code. I said, Clark, this is a problem, and he said, Oh, okay. Can you fix it? And I'm like,
Sure. So I fixed it. Meanwhile, he was sitting over there doing all the off-chain code and shit.
And then I kept yelling at him, like, Clark, don't use your DotNet library if it's gonna take you
longer. If you have something you gotta fix in it, like, just use Mesh. And he's like, No,
I will not concede. And then eventually he ended up conceding and used Blaze to to get it done in
like the last thirty fucking minutes before submission was. Yeah, why are you telling us the
behind the scenes blemishes, motherfucker? You keep that shit to yourself.
We're rewriting history now, and this is a champion you're speaking to. How it goes?
These coders rag on each other though. I know, I know. If Clark can put together
what actually was needed in thirty minutes with Blaze, and and he was able to break that.
That was exactly the amount of time he needed. I'd say that's pretty solid, right?
Because it was like eight thirty, and he's like, "Fuck it, I'm just going to use Blaze,
" and and the submissions were due at nine, right? So, well, he probably was a little nervous.
I mean, granted, he just flew all the way from the Philippines. His wife and kids are waiting home.
He's not trying to fucking let anyone down. There's a lot of things to think about
in thirty minutes, and you only got an hour. Shit, bro! Come on, give him a break. No, no,
I'm very proud of Clark. I'm very, very proud of Clark. I think Clark is a winner.
No time for losers because we are the champions. But Clark, if you didn't buy that man a dinner
and/or maybe a drink and shine that head of his as a thank you, because he did give you
the Obi Wan Kenobi type pathway to to win, he gave you the the the suggestion that you needed,
like Obi Wan. Bro, he he deserves it, bro. We're we're actually I am actually buying a ticket
for him at Miami, bro. We're gonna celebrate there. I don't think we're gonna actually go into
the the conference based on. Oh, right. We're just gonna go down there and hang out. But like,
let's still do that. We'll go down there. We'll fucking hang out. We'll take the money that
we won to the casino. We'll fucking run it up to like five million. We're gonna lose everything.
Yeah, that's pretty much. Always win, never lose. See this. Listen, if you lose everything, right?
Riley even got me drunk, bro. This guy, bro. He's like, bro, let's order another beer, bro.
There's like one hour left, bro. We're drunk. Yeah, the bar kept closing on us.
They closed at twelve thirty. It's like, come on, my guy, you think us Americans stop at
twelve thirty? No way. And then we realized that they still had
more beers in the fridge in the lobby, and you could charge them to your room. So then we started.
Yeah, that's definitely one thing you can't do. Is show like a group of drunk men
that that their night is about the end, and there's still free liquor around. Of some sort,
like yeah, the nighty room service, you know, yeah, the party isn't ending. Like,
motherfuckers are about to just drink on the sidewalk if they have to. Fucking right.
The amount of wine that we were given the the final night of the the actual conference, like
when Santiago and them were singing for us and shit, like they just had unlimited wine.
It was like just you know, you go up there, you ask for wine, they pour you more,
you drink it in like two seconds flat, ask for more, they pour you more. It was crazy. Obviously,
I wasn't I wasn't drinking my wine in two seconds and asking for more,
but I'm sure they still would have like you. He was, bro. He was, buddy.
It's weird how he knew the calculations and the timeline, and you weren't the one that arranged it.
No, no, no. It's someone who isn't me did that for sure. He was amazed at
how much wine he was getting. That's how you know it was him. Well, dude. Yeah. I mean, like,
same with just the other night. So on on Sunday night, because I stayed a couple extra days.
Adam Dean, his wife, John, and then one of their employees and myself—we all went out
to a tango show, and that shit was dope as fuck. It's like a three-course meal. They have, you know,
the the wine is included—at least one of the kinds of wine. If you want like
a super fancy fucking wine, then you gotta pay extra. But, dude, yeah, Argentines know
how to enjoy their wine for sure. Love the steak and wine, you know? Fuck yeah, fucking right. Sado
and wine. I bought my dad a a nice bottle of wine while I was down there. Bought my mama a necklace.
Um. Now I just gotta have a way to get back. Fucking home.
This fucking stupid ass Washington drivers are. It's different, right? So, like, in Argentina,
everyone just is like, go, go, go, and here they're like, you see a bitch, you know what I mean?
But at least here they stay like in the lines. They they they like choose a lane,
and if you're gonna move lanes, you blinker. They don't do that in Argentina.
You just have people driving all over the fucking road. They don't give a shit about the lines.
They just avoid other cars, or at least they try to, right? But even then, it's like hella sketch.
But they go fast. Like they don't, they don't do none of this pussyfooting shit that they do in
Washington. It's like, come on, we don't need to be going ten under the fucking speed limit.
You know, it's only because there's some guy up there that's being a bitch,
and then it causes knock-on effects, and everyone else has to fucking be a bitch,
and then it's just a bunch of bitches. That's how I'm feeling right now.
Those muscles are getting to your head, but I respect it, man. I'm trying to get like you,
and I've been working out myself. But yeah, go fuck them up, Riley. They sound like a pussy.
They are pussies, and I would just go in the H O V lane, but I'm not trying to get a ticket for like
five hundred dollars for going in the fucking H O V lane, you know. Because they will do that. Like,
I if if the cops see you in the HOV lane, they will fucking pull your ass over right quick.
FSD should detect that, bro. Like, if you have someone with you, like, just go to the lane, bro.
Yeah, they have it in the settings, so you can choose. Oh, okay. Yeah.
But I'm not even using the FSD right now because I'm I have hardware three
and it's not as good as hardware four. I'm honestly I should just turn off my subscription
right now. I'm wasting a hundred dollars a month on FSD that I don't fucking use.
I like the visualization though on the screen. Like, I like being able to see everything
on the screen. It's definitely cool. Yeah, the raw data. That's dope. Yeah,
you see like fucking dozens of vehicles on the screen, and they're all accurately tracked
and everything. It's incredible how much it's processing. You really get a good idea by looking at
that to see like this is how much it's processing any every millisecond, you know? Exactly. Okay,
I'm almost off of four hundred five and on the I ninety. I just told you. Yo, can you hear me now?
Yeah. There we go, bro. Holy shit! Why were you so quiet, bro? Bro, I've been. I'm.
I'm driving to my warehouse, and I go through these places where there's just shit reception.
So I was just fighting over here to keep the space up, let alone speak. I'm glad you kept it up,
Esco, because we're back, baby. Back. Yo, yo, yo. All I want to know is,
since I am the attorney of the Chile Python submit submitters, where is my ten percent?
That's all I care about. I don't give a damn. Bro, we're we're eating we're eating Wagyu at Miami,
bro. Don't worry, bro. I'll buy a Wagyu. USDCX ten percent cut. That's and don't tell me what I can
and cannot eat in Miami, okay? Yeah, don't bring John up. What John? Why don't bring me up? No,
the other John, the one that told usco what he could and couldn't have
last time they all did you win the hackathon or something? I did, bro. You you didn't see the shit,
bro? No. What was disappointing is that instead of admitting our team name on the timeline,
it's like they're covering it up. I had too epic of a team name. Team Kiley, and for some reason,
so gay, bro. You guys, wait! You guys were on the team today. Yep. It was mostly
it was mostly Clark. I just fucking helped out at like the nah, bro, damn bit
because like I didn't even get there the first day because my flight was delayed and shit. Oh,
there was like a hundred teams, dude, and you guys won. That's awesome. Yeah, it was a lot of. Yeah,
John, there is a lot of talent in Cardano that you keep ignoring, John.
Saying that everybody here is plebs, there's no talent in Cardano. No,
nobody's capable of doing anything. El says that, not John. I don't say that.
I say most of the talent works for the founding entities, which is true.
Because they're the only ones that can afford it. What did you guys? What did you guys win?
What was like the prize? Five grand. Yeah, yeah, twenty grand, keeping fifteen.
They had a basically. It was ten grand was up for for grabs. Five for first place,
three for second place, and then two for third place. I think. Yeah. Yep.
They didn't invite us to that. To be honest, with how much they have,
I would have just started taking shit from the office as well. Like I'm taking the chainsaw with me
and a few chairs. I'm sorry. Actually, what did you guys? What what what did you guys do for
your winning project? It's uh. You can explain it, Clark. Yeah, we basically replicated Paul Market,
bro. That's it. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, you know, you know the, you know
the five minute Bitcoin market where you have to guess like what's the price in of Bitcoin
in the next five minutes, right? Oh, we created that basically. Oh, cool! No, I haven't seen that.
And and how long did you guys have to do it? Like eight hours or something. That's impressive.
But I mean, AI is definitely essential to be able to get things done in that timeline.
Like for sure, but I mean, still though, that's really cool that you guys did that,
and you use the Pith API for that. Yep, yep, and it's super smooth. Honestly,
I'm really happy with the Pith integration. I, I, me too, dude. Pith is dope, dude.
I love how it's structured, like with the signatures or whatever. I forget what they're called,
but it's dope. Yeah. Well, and it's cool because they can always update like what signature
is required, or if they want to have like a set of signatures. But just having a data feed
where it's constantly up to date, and you're able to pull it in on chain
into smart contract use cases, super helpful. I think this is way better than any. I mean,
and I'm not trying to hate on the existing Oracle solutions, but this is just way better
than the existing. Oh yeah, yeah. No, we met with them. I am. I will. I will. Pith is very good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You would blow away. Pith is a real Oracle. This is a real. Real good oracle.
Can we use like any of their data feeds, or do we have to? Yo, yo, John, I pinned the the app.
Clark, did you see my repost? You, I'm so proud of you. Oh, thank you, bro. Let me check. Yeah,
really happy for you and Riley, dude. That's awesome. Wait, Riley was on there too.
Why did Iog only? Honestly, I think they don't want to get backlash for the fact that I was on.
Right. Yeah. He had no knowledge of fifth, though, bro. He was like, I mean, what? What is the?
You get like an IO advantage? Come on. What the fuck? Yeah, no, I I think it's a you're a victim
of success, Riley. Yeah, you're no kidding. Look, no one even told us about this hackathon.
I'm sure we would have done well, like if if like Frank would have went, you know, would have gone.
But oh well. Yeah, it's no stress. Um, I don't remember exactly
when they first started announcing it. It was definitely like a public thing.
Anybody could have come and participated. So it wasn't like it wasn't an invite only type of thing.
Okay. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, you you had to be on site though, John, to to join. Yeah,
at least one at least one member. Yeah, I don't think we would have wanted to do that right now.
We didn't. The IO office is lit though. Like honestly, the IO office is super nice.
The the people that are there are very attentive. You know, there's like some some office staff
and Morrow. I don't know how to say his last name. His name. His last name starts with an A. Morrow
ordered empanadas for some of us who were there on. Fuck. It was the. It's like the last day
of the the conference, or the day after the last day of the conference,
when most people were heading out, and so got some some empanadas. Bro,
empanadas in Argentina are the best. Watch. Oh, sounds so yummy, man! I want to have them.
I really want to go to Argentina. Palada. Sorry, no, no, no. Go ahead. I just love paladas.
The fucking. No, I just I want to go visit TX Pipe, and and I've just always wanted to go to
Argentina. It's such a an amazing country, you know. I'm leaning towards going down there for
like five months during winter time this year, just because winter in Washington is
extremely depressing, and down there when it's winter here, it's summer there, so it's like.
I may end up going and spending. Bro, let me know, bro. I'm coming, bro.
They have really cold places in Argentina too. That's what's cool. Like in the south,
it's like Arctic. We got yeah, yeah. Well, if you're at the southernmost part of Argentina,
you're closer to Antarctica than any other landmass. Like, it's kind of crazy,
and you can just take a cruise down to Antarctica from Argentina. A lot of people go down
to Patagonia, which is up, up to or down to. Yeah. Oh, right. Nope. Oh my bad.
That's also a book bag. The whole point. You know where I never want to go is fucking Panama, dude.
I heard it's a shithole country. Oh man. Now we're fucking countries. I am. Fucking the chain.
I'm gonna show him who's boss. It happens to be a Panamanian, you piece of shit. So
why do you guys gotta mention my hometown or whatever? Or whatever. One piece cards, never.
By a Panamanian, yeah, man. Stay, stay, stay. Doing some dog training. Yeah. The shit around.
Listen. I thought he was doing social engineering right now. Yeah, I'm. I'm hypnotizing you guys.
Stay. Even though there's no volume, stay. Yo, Phil, you see, you see that shit on the timeline?
Your biggest fans created the fucking funniest video. What's so funny? Oh, dude,
that was such a good. That was such a good edit of me. I saw that I posted. I was like, "Thank you.
That's such a nice edit. It made me look so cool." I was listening to it. I was like, "What?
Who is this guy?" I think I'm gonna post that on my YouTube or something. Bro, put it on my resume.
It just shows off how much you really are like one of the main characters, you know? Yeah,
they played like really cool background music. It really like highlighted me as
like a main character. I had like a whole fucking intro song and like really nice graphics
in the background of the forest and shit. I don't. They made like a whole fucking like pump piece
or something. Crypto revolves around Phil. That shit was funny as fuck. Like,
did they like throw it into an LLM and were like, be mean? And like the LLM security guards
just said, like, oh, I can't. I'm just gonna have to glaze fill the whole time
because I can't be mean. I like, I don't, sir. But he has accolades. You create that video with
if you didn't like me, like it's like so flattering. You know that that that video is by
the very same person. That was originally fighting with you about the IAG thing,
and then they ended up turning against IAG themselves. The irony. They've now turned against
IAG too. That's so funny. It's so funny, dude. The whole thing. I'm actually like really thankful
for that. It's such a nice gift. Like I might frame that on like a video,
like one of those little video player things. Like it's it's real nice.
I wouldn't I I wouldn't take the time to like put a nice soundtrack next to cool stuff
I'm saying with cool background, and all. It's like really nice when someone else takes care of you
like that, you know. And it was free. You didn't even have to pay. Yeah,
I didn't have to pay no fiver guy to do it. Like someone just did it out of the goodness
of their heart to take care of me. You know, very nice. He said, "I'll see you in corp, fucker." Yo,
but hell yeah, dude. It seems like everybody's had a nice little break. I'm glad Riley. You know,
probably saw some big booty Latinas. You know, with the whole committee over there.
I'm sure you know big booty Latinas were in abundance. So, so there's this. What was her name?
Clark Melena. Oh no! Yeah, don't don't be flying too close to the sun though.
There's a million big booty Latinas that have nothing to do with the space or nothing,
but you're always attracted to the exactly with no fucking name. Hear me out, okay?
So here's the thing though. She she was bartending and waiting on us and shit,
and then John sends me a fucking picture of her all dressed up while I'm on the plane,
and he's like, just waiting for her to finish getting ready so we can go on our. Of course,
John would do that. John just like yo yo go ahead go get back to the go get back to the U S. Fellas.
I'll take it from here. Exactly. That's real. See, that's real snaky shit.
Like I didn't know it was snakey like that. All right, it's one thing. Look,
it's one thing to be like, okay, my friend. Hold on, it's like it's one thing to say, my friend,
my friend says he likes a girl, and then she likes me, so I hook up with the girl. Okay,
that's one thing. But to them, be like, hey, bro, what are you up to right now? He's like, oh,
I'm just chilling. Yo, check it out. You know the girl you like? Yeah, I'm about to go hang out.
That's exactly what he did, bro. He ran. He ran an interception. He ran. You know,
they were running a blitz, and and John was like, nope, multi coverage interception play. You know.
Fucking ten yards back, yellow flag, first down. On a different game, bro. Riley was so drunk, bro.
He was suggesting the Eiffel Tower, bro, and shit. If I ever say that, I want to be really clear.
If I ever say that, it's a joke. I've said that shit so many times. I think it's funny.
I am not trying to be. You guys, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chill, chill, chill.
Now you're just going too far. How was the programmable tokens talk? Did they, did they try to,
did they try to hide how, how brutally their contracts are being destroyed by mine?
I didn't even actually listen to that one to be honest. I don't know. Yeah,
I didn't go to that thing, bro. The most, the most impressive, like, so obviously there's Blaster,
and I have some bias there. Blaster's super fucking cool, right? And that was shown off.
I got biased too. That shit was awesome. We used that for USTCX. That shit slaps.
But another one that was really a solid presentation was the Gummy Worm Hydrazoa presentation.
I thought they did a really good job. I saw that before you idiots did. So. Well, it was cool.
It was definitely cool. It was very cool. This is all about stroking y'all egos,
so we're all fucked. I thought this was like tech trying to be innovative.
I didn't know they were just like in each other. Let me let me update you with some shit. See,
all the real, and I say it again, I said it before, all the devs, they're all fucking friends.
They all show each other shit. They're like, yo, check out my shit. Use my tool. Okay,
I'll use that too. They're all legitimately like. Friends in the background,
because they all have the same fucking mission. They're building in the same environment,
all this sort of stuff. And what somebody discovers and puts a decent implementation on, they build
upon each other. You know, it's called open sourcing. Except CF doesn't. Hold on, hold on.
I was gonna get there. God damn, bro. And and and they like all like, hey, you know,
this came from the homie over there, made my life ten times easier, and show love for each other
and everything. And then there are certain entities that they're like. No,
I'm just gonna rewrite some shit and not give you any credit, and then I'm gonna brag about
it being my own. And that's it. You're gonna have to deal with it. So nice,
like you takes you you see someone else they have a really good you know infrastructure tech
that makes makes it so that you can get to market a hundred times faster
because you don't have to build some shit from the ground up, and you can just you know work
on your business logic and and that's it. And then, you know, if there's some some feature
you need from that, you can just add it to it. You know, you can create a PR and improve their work,
and everyone benefits. And that's where open source succeeds. Or you can be like CF,
and someone does that for you for three years. They contribute to all of your repositories, solve
critical vulnerability, like literally identify, report, and patch critical vulnerabilities
that could affect mainnet protocols in all your shit. Report something that could drain
the IBC bridge entirely that went completely unnoticed by their audit, and you know,
generally just improve all their shit for years and contribute to their shit for years,
and then you can have someone like that, and you can just take all of their work
and not contribute to it at all, and then just rebuild it from the ground up
and spend a ton of community funds doing that because you're seated with Genesis ADA,
and so you go pay your own devs to go reimplement everything that's already implemented.
And then you make a bigger version of it, and then you use your immense marketing
and outreach to force that version on the community by getting wallets, paying wallets,
and shit to adopt that instead of the one that's good and is cheaper and objectively better
by every metric. So, yeah. I will not be open sourcing the source code for my company Anthropic,
and if anybody goes and weeds it out, I just leaked. I just leaked Esco's code, guys.
I downloaded it, and I'm a peasant. I got my dirty peasant fingers. And I'm not gonna get
any fucking credit from you, bozos. Yeah, about that, bro. Our Hackathon code got leaked, bro.
They got it. Got leaked. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can check it out. Oh, you leaked.
You you posted it. Yeah, it's open source. I thought CF wiped it. CF from that you submitted it
to them to review, and then they swore and published it. Yeah, it's the CF Oracle. CF Oracle, pith,
done. They didn't even remove the credits out of the repo. It just still says. Bro,
seriously though, guys, like the fucking gummy worm demo. Oh my god, bro! Like
if every app on Cardano becomes that, bro, we're gonna have a hyper hyper liquid, bro.
Tell us in a non-nerdy way what you thought was so rad about it. When I saw the video,
it looked like it was stupid fast. So yes, fast and very cheap. Yeah, maybe maybe yeah. Okay,
so here's what here's the experience right now, right on Cardano, right? Yeah.
The experience right now on Cardano is like you connect your wallet, you do a transaction,
wait for fucking one minute, and then do another transaction, right? And obviously,
like in in a centralized exchange, all that shit that doesn't, you know, you can't do that, right?
So with this is what you do: is you deposit money to the to the gummy worm,
and and it's just like just another transaction on Cardano. And once you have money there,
you just click buttons, and it instantly confirms, bro. That's it. Whether it's like
an NFT marketplace, and the thing about it is like you can write custom ledgers, such that it can,
it you can manipulate your bank account from that layer. If if if you know,
it can be connected to to the Web2 world, but you're just signing things in your Cardano wallet.
Shit like this, very fast and shit like this. You know, super cool shit. I don't like that.
Big shout out to where you have to deposit, where you have to make a deposit,
and then you can use it. It reminds me of like that Hydra Dex. No, I mean it is, it is a competitor.
Exactly, it's a direct competitor to Delta DeFi. Right. Yeah. It's like I don't like it. Yeah,
I mean that's how the world works. You gotta get used to it. Big surprise, John!
Big fucking surprise. So here is he said, "Who made it?" I don't like it. John actually is.
You're pointing out something that has nothing that that is an actual issue with with L2s
in general. That um. We have no interoperability layer, right? So if you have funds on,
for instance, Gummy Worm, right, and and there's some funds, there's an order book on Delta DeFi,
right, and you want to arbitrage between them, you can't, right? Because the L2s can't talk to
each other. You have to go, you have to withdraw back to the Cardano L1,
which is going to take forever, and then you have to go back and deposit into Delta DeFi,
which is going to take forever. And this is why we need. Something like superchains or Aglayer,
just like a generic L2 interoper layer that needs to be done now. Because what happened in
Ethereum is they waited, and they waited so long that the L2s were all developed without
the interoper solution. And then by the time they were like, oh yeah, we need one now.
There were like five that came out, and they all compete against each other,
and no one wants to adopt the others. And so we need to make sure that right now all L2s
are built with the same interoperability standard, the exact same interoperability solution
that isn't captured by like you know Gummy Worm or Midgard. It can't just be like
the Midgard interoperability solution because then the others won't adopt it.
It just needs to be a credibly neutral interoperability that all the L2s use,
so that we don't have the shit issue that ETH has with with L2 fragmentation. Yeah,
that's a good point. It will be built by Cswap. Cswap is going to be building this interop layer.
It looks like Aglayer. It looks like basically you just create a standard interface,
like a contract on the L1, that through which all of all of them can communicate to each other.
Because the problem is every L2 has its own deposit contract and its own withdrawal contract, right?
In Ethereum, you call these inbox and outbox contracts. And they all have
different formats of what data they want to accept. How how do you make a deposit?
What do you need to do to make a deposit? And this means like if you want to like move value
between a few L2s, you need like to have the transaction building logic for like you know
five different contracts. You need to know okay what is the format of deposit here,
the format of deposit there. There's no like generic way to send value or messages across L2s,
and that's why you need just one generic inbox and outbox contract,
like an interop inbox outbox on the Cardano L1 that facilitates all of that.
That makes sense. Well, I'm using. We're gonna be using mid guard. Yo, yo, John, don't worry though.
Like Gummy Room is like a framework you can use for for c swap too. Yeah, John, you can. We're using
mid guard. We yeah. Better better dev team and and we. I like the name better. Guys, hey, hold on,
you gotta be careful with the words, man. Yeah, he's. Hold on, hold on.
Before everyone attacks each other, I just want everybody to know that Hold had his hand up
the whole time and he put it down. Can we just hear from him for a millisecond? Yeah, what's up,
Luffy? Luffy. Yeah, Amir. Demos, I appreciate you for acknowledging my hand as I put
this whole blockchain on my shoulders. Unlike Phil, I get to just walk around with pockets full
of cash and get to talk shit to all these broke community members. My cousin. No, no, no,
it's Tuesday. I just want to know what the fuck, where we're going to eat. It's Taco Tuesday.
Should I get some quesabirria tacos, or should I go get a arroz con pollo? Quesabirria is good.
What is it? Quesabirria. It's uh, it's racist to partake in Taco Tuesday, by the way. How?
I'm two third. I'm two percent Mexican. That's not enough for the card.
You have to be ten percent for the card. Shit. Okay, but you or I didn't know my hand was still up.
You guys are cooking. All here's mid card, and then you can get the card too. There are two options.
Go ahead and get back to your argument about who whose Haribo candies are better: gummy worms,
bears. Go ahead. No, they're honestly. He's a great. He's a great. Midgard has different tradeoffs,
right? And this is something Phil has said many, many times that blockchain is
an extremely tradeoff-heavy domain. And I would say that Gummy Worm and Midgard make
different design decisions that lead to different tradeoffs. The design, the tradeoff on Midgard,
or sorry, the tradeoff on Gummy Worm is that Midgard is a lot better. The dev who built it is
a lot better. It's got better design. It's got a better personality. Who let it? Oh,
this this is all personal shit. That's all I've heard. No, no, no. Give me some technical.
This is business. This is business. Okay, okay. Yeah, the architecture. At the end of the day,
like I do think Phil is Phil is either number one, or if he's not number one in this ecosystem,
I I would have to really be convinced otherwise. So I I agree that you know
it's hard to find someone who's more talented than Phil. Yeah, exactly.
And some say that it all comes from that Canada Goose. Once he takes it off,
he just becomes merely a normal man. That's why he keeps it on. I'm saying we want the best.
We want the best L2. You know, we don't want like the mediocre, like one with the candy,
and you know, like they try and make it like competitive by naming it something cute
or ice cream candy shit. We're not into that. You know, we just want Midgard. Just sounds legit.
You know, it's not trying to brand itself all. You know, it's it's got a meaningful name. You know,
that's important to us. You know, I'm not gonna post on the C swap site. We use Gummy Worm.
You know, it just sounds. Listen, if the guy look, I'd expect that when a guy has pink hair
or purple, and sometimes red or orange, and he builds a fucking fire product,
I expect him to call it Gummy Worm or Happy Horse. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Who built Gummy Worm?
I thought, I thought it was Clark that built Gummy Worm. What? No, it's your it's your arch nemesis,
brother. He knows exactly what he's doing. I think it's Clark and sorry, it's it's Pai
and George Floroski, who's a very good developer. Oh, I do like George. The the thing is,
Gummy Worm is an app. It is like a it's a state channel solution still.
So it has all the tradeoffs of Hydra with a limited participant set.
It doesn't fully like it doesn't inherit the security of the Cardano L1. It has independent security
and and more importantly, it's an app chain. Right from a UX perspective,
this means there's one app on it. And so, like Gummy Worm is an order book Dex, right?
And you'll have the order book Dex, but DeFi needs many apps, right? People use is is
a cross chain order book. Yeah, it's like Hyperliquid, right? It's like a it's an order book,
and so it's good at perps, but it's not Optimism, right? It's not. I heard I heard George got like
booted from like the Midgard team because he was mid. And and now he went with
like the not necessarily mid no Phil he can't fuck with you dude stop none of these guys
can I like I think George is great I just found bro it was his birthday bro the event bro we sang to
him bro. Yeah, George is a really great guy. Yeah, he is. It's just he's like you know double A
and Midgard is like the major league, and he couldn't make it, so he went with his buddy Pie and No,
it's just miners. Minor. No, he was he was already working on state channels.
He's passionate about state channels, and when he's working on, it was mostly just
that he he had hydrozoa, and I could tell that was his main passion. And I wanted to let him,
you know. Yeah, he's a one. He's a one-trick pony. Yeah. John, stop the fuck up! Damn, bro,
you keep going. I like George. It was wonderful working with him. It's just, you know,
when you're he's passionate about state channels, it makes sense for him to work on state channels.
I needed CTO that was passionate about optimistic rollups. Right? I needed someone that
that Midgard. That's what they want to build. It's not about skill. Like he had
all the technical competency to do it. It's just, you know, he he was he wanted state channels,
and so it didn't. I just let you know. That's why we let him go. Yeah, well, I'm. I like
optimistic rollups better, anyways. So we will be using midgard. It's not the other.
We will be right. You need a hyperliquid and you need a base. Personally, I like base better. Like,
if you use base, it is a beautiful. Oh, base. The experience will change you, but. Well,
we're going to be we're going to be omni chain. We're going to be omni chain, anyways.
But as far as L2s go. We're going to be using Midgard, and we're going to be telling everybody
else to use Midgard. And there, there are a ton of people that like like Appchains better too.
There's a ton of people that use the Uniswap chain that love it, and that's their thing.
If you're like, I'm a one, like I just need to do an order book, then you'll get the best. Yeah,
we might build our own L2 as well, and guess what we'll be using to build our L2 with, Bill?
Mid Midgard, that midguard. Ding ding ding ding. Exactly. I mean, it's like the best of both worlds.
We can use Midgard. No, I think if you well, well, it depends on the trust assumption.
If you want that you want right, if if if the trust assumption, if you want like to fully inherit
the security of the L1 for your app chain, then using Midgard makes sense. But if you're like,
I want to be hyper liquid and just have like 27 validators and not give a fuck, then Using
gummy worm, you could just use gummy worm. Yeah, that's not gonna work for us.
We want the we want the cream, cream de la creme.
It's not one is better; it's just different. Well, you know.
Wait, did you just leak that you're gonna be like having an L two, John? I mean, possibly
if if we feel like, like I was talking to Charles about tokenizing electrons
and stuff the other day, like, and I was like. Holy shit! Like that sounds amazing.
Like we want to do that. I mean, I don't know when, but it's like, you know,
I'm thinking years into the future. But it's like there's so much waste in the energy sector,
and like energy is going to become everything with like AI. So I was asking Charles about it,
and he said that we should create an L2 where you like. Like tokenize electrons. Well,
I I really think though, like everything, I think everything should just like move to
this like um new like this model of like app chain, as Phil said, or or a roll up um like Midgard,
right? And and basically the the the good thing, like the happy thing,
is that when you're done using these products, you can move your money back to a secure place to
to save your money, right? Whether it be an ADA or a USD, go back to Cardano,
the most decentralized chain. It just feels so good, bro. You know, with all this future stuff.
It depends. It depends on. Midgard's goal is to is to get rid of that. Midgard will.
That's even better, bro. Full security inheritance from Cardano. Like as it stands right now
in its current state, it has equivalent security to Cardano for everything related to Validium.
So all transaction validation, transaction processing. It inherits the full security of Cardano.
The independent node set doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. What they do that the correctness
is enforced entirely by the one honest actor assumption, and so as long as one person is honest,
that could be anybody. It doesn't have to be an operator; just anybody observing the chain,
then the chain is secure. And and and yet you improve the throughput and and finality, right?
In this layer, it has immensely. It has around 8k TPS now. And finality is practically instant.
Holy shit! The the the the main barrier right now is that the security inheritance. Even
though we were able to do basically everything we could with Cardano in its current form,
Cardano doesn't have DA. So DA data availability is the only part that has
independent security still. And the second Cardano gets a native DA solution will have
full equivalent security to Cardano. Like right now, it's we have full security as a validator,
so all transaction validation has the same security as Cardano, but data availability doesn't.
But yeah, this is something that is just a fundamental restriction of Cardano.
Like we will have to use Celestia or something for DA. And the second Cardano gets DA,
this will be the the best in class rollup, right? Optimism doesn't even inherit a fraction
of Ethereum's security or economic security. It has entirely like it has a multi stage
that can just rug Optimism at any time. This is the same for every L2 on Ethereum.
This is not true for Midgard. Midgard is the first rollup in class to inherit full security,
not not stage two, not stage three, a hundred percent security from the L1. Holy shit. Yep,
that's what we want, and you don't even have to really rewrite any code. Like it's gonna,
it's gonna work. We won't really have to rewrite our code. No, Don's like a kid in the candy store,
bro. That doesn't like candy. No candy. I don't like sweets. I want something savory, dude.
I want something creamy. Oh my god, he's like, I'm here for the croissants. Fuck the,
fuck the sweet. Hundred percent security, optimistic roll up. Like, come on, bro. Woo!
That is fucking hilarious. No, but if we want to do something like that for RWAs, like, dude,
how you know how much of an opportunity disrupt is that? Like, like Charles was talking about
how how much energy is wasted, and like we all know, like energy is going to be in tremendous demand
for AI. So it's like if you could build a decentralized like exchange for energy,
like another exchange. Well, I think it would be a little bit different,
and we require a lot of like regulatory infrastructure. But we are going in that direction, anyways.
And I was talking to the VP of Barclays about tokenizing like power plants and stuff.
And some people own like a lot of these power plants and want like they don't want to sell it
publicly. They want to sell it privately. So he was really interested in what we were working on,
you know, in terms of that the RWAs and midnight stuff. Um, so so that got me thinking about
just energy in general, because you know they're saying energy might be like the new currency.
You know, like everybody can have AI agents like working for them, and like the more energy that
you have, the more AI agents you can have working for you, and. You can make a lot of money,
you know. I think I'll sell my own mom to the black market for damn tokens. I
but you don't want no gummy worms. I think in the future we're all going to be
everyone's going to be a lot more entrepreneurial because I think everything will be
a lot more decentralized. So it's like you'll be able to, like you know,
whore out your like AI agents to like different companies and like get a piece, you know,
get a piece of of the company or the revenue or something. Like, yeah, I mean,
I'm thinking probably like. 20 years down the road or something, but I think the future
of business is much more decentralized. We'll be able to scale much more quickly
with decentralized business models than with centralized business models. You know,
I think it's almost like I agree 100% with what you just said, John. But I think
the most important thing to me right now, I want to just see people starting to be more cordial
with one another. You know what I mean? Like, even if we're at odds with one another, even if,
fuck you, Igon. Look, my yeah, yeah. There's exceptions. There's exceptions for sure.
Oh my goodness. But like. Largely speaking, I think it would be great if,
especially the developer community within Cardano, was able to get along to the extent that, like,
you know, we can push each other forward and not try and feel like, you know, yeah,
we're not enemies, right? They're humans. Stop trying to be my enemy, literally.
I get along with like there's like ninety-eight percent of the developers on Cardano.
There are some that are extremely like arrogant and difficult to get along with.
I'm the developer now, John. You're gonna have to deal with me. You've always been a developer,
Esco, at heart. But like, I'm not even. Yo, I just ordered a split keyboard too.
I'm fucking coming for all your pages. I just ordered Qdoba. I used to remember he's Latino,
so you know how they rule over their people. You already know, to their plantation
with all you white fuckers. Yo, you know what's funny? Let me let me call this mf right here,
so he can put it on his next little fucking video. What is it? How do you even say his name?
His name is like Yeyedi or something. Yeyedi, your little creative mf, dude.
The one that's the one that made that video about you, so the the clipping shit.
This mf be sent down in anonymous right now, recording this right now, bro. Please save it, man.
Like, don't make me mind your business. Please, you put my face on that shit, you know. So be nice.
Listen to listen. Listen to Riley. Riley says let's be more cordial and and nice
and shit instead of just being divisive and stuff. It makes it hard for me to want to show up every.
This space is for free. Like I need some money too. Where's the treasury for me?
Ain't nobody saying that. I need to have uh on Cardano that makes more money than I do,
so I don't like any dev on Cardano. Cardano just sucks money from me like nothing else. But Phil,
you're making all these millions, Phil, and then making no millions. There's zero millions. There's
zero dollars out of the treasury for me. Zero, nada. We're gonna run an audit on Phil
because people want me to take the midgard money. People upset I'm not taking the money out
of the treasury. To be honest, that is kind of funny. Um, they're like submitting those POAs.
Like they're like, bro, you haven't made no progress. Google doesn't want to intersect.
Collect the money. People can shut up. People really want me to collect that money.
I'm going after it, dude. You are such a troll. I cannot believe you bullposting, Iagon.
Such a troll, Alex. See, you know that that that the CTO of Aegon does SPOs as a service. Yeah,
and LARPs as single SPOs. Like Marine, she's one of them. The Yam Pool is ran by him.
Dozens of others in the ecosystem. He like tells these people to LARP as single SPOs. He's like, oh,
don't post on your social media that I run the pool or anything, because you won't get delegation.
And he convinces them that they'll get, you know, they pay him and they'll get
extra luck in minting blocks. Very, very ethical thing to do because you can definitely get
extra luck as a SPO operator too. Yo, that's dirty. He put he put magic and whimsy behind this.
It's the same fucking, it's the same predatory marketing and vaporware bullshit that I
that he uses in Iagon. It's the same bullshit. It's the same. Oh, we do all this stuff.
It does AI AI storage solution. Blah blah blah. No, no. There's it is a shitty, shitty.
Old fork of IPFS that was changed to an even shittier centralized gateway solution,
where you give all your data to a single entity and they distribute that data to different nodes.
And there's there's no data encryption, there's no security of anything.
It's everything passes through the gateway, so you trust the gateway. It's a worse version of AWS
by every metric. I it's just cannot believe that this scam has remained live,
and so much of the ecosystem funding has gone into investing in this shitty vaporware. Calling it
and people still call it DPN, and like now you'll even hear like Nav backtrack and be like,
well we're not decentralized, we're blah blah blah. It's it's like if you're not decentralized,
what's the point? Why not just fucking use AWS? Like, what are you offering, dude?
What is the offer? Such a scam. Endless amounts of treasury money go into this bullshit.
Unbelievable. Fucking the Cyclone things. Oh, it's our custom Cyclone for running nodes.
It is like it is a white label. Shit, soft, shit piece of hardware that the
that that can't comes from the CTO, the same guy running Single Stay Pool as a service thing.
It's the same hardware he uses that's just bought from fucking Alibaba that they white label
and say, oh yeah, this is a special thing. Does not it's special hardware designed specifically
for hosting Cardano nodes. No, it's not. No, it's it's it's special hardware made for like
non-technical retards like me to just run a node. But you can buy it from Alibaba, and not.
I know he didn't make it. This is the whole. Yeah, absolutely not. Look, look.
I can't with this company. I hate you. You guys, you guys need a. You guys need to get a bottle
of rum, drink it, have a good old brawl. And then laugh about it. I will never. I'll have the brawl.
I will never. I want this man out of the ecosystem. No, no, no. There is no. I am calling it.
I am calling it right now. There is no exciting people. No. Karate combat. No.
The only person I guess to exile anybody in this ecosystem is Manu. Bro, we need a EFC match, bro.
Feel versus Snap, bro. Listen, if you commit fraud, right? If you defraud the treasury, right?
You need to be outed. We cannot continuously give treasury money to people defrauding the treasury
and rinsing retail. I'm sorry. If you are buying the Iagon token on all of these false promises,
and you're being dumped on every month by the Iagon team, if you look at their sales,
just 43 million IAG dumped right continuously. If you look at this new loan, right,
this this whole fucking fluid tokens API thing, where it's like, oh, look, we always repay our loan.
Look at the size of their previous loans, and look at the size of this loan.
They're putting a shit ton of Iagon as collateral. A metric fuckload, and saying, "Oh,
you're going to make crazy ADA APY if you if you just lend us your ADA,
you're getting like five percent APY, and we're definitely going to pay back this loan.
We're not going to default on it and leave you with a ton of worthless Iagon token because we have
the total supply of Iagon, and right before the loan ends, we're going to dump on the market
so that the price crashes to nothing and you're left holding shitty useless tokens.
We'll definitely not do that. I promise. We're we're just we're going to repay this fucking
Million dollar loan, yeah, I definitely believe that. Also, CB Dow after extracting fucking you know
quote unquote loan of like hundreds of thousands of dollars from CB Dow. On top of this,
how much money do you need for legal to pursue your patent trolling? But the the stated reason
for this money is pursue partnerships and patent and lawsuits. It's like,
do you really need to rinse fucking 1.4 million dollars from the community to fucking do
a patent troll lawsuit? This is so anti-crypto. It's unbelievable that we have
a literal happy patent troll in the ecosystem who's like, "Oh, Worth Group
loves loves my patent trolling." They're so on board with me, just like suing Filecoin
and all these other like great builders of the industry who have contributed actual
like meaningful improvements to decentralized storage and. Like genuinely made the world
a better place and more accessible, and more fair and equitable. And we're just gonna, you know,
our our role in society is gonna be to sue these people with our patent troll
and and try to get money from this. It's like unbelievable. Oh, we have another Fortune 500
partnership coming, guys. I promise. Definitely buy the token. You're gonna make so much money
from this this hidden Fortune 500. I can't say their name, but they're so big,
and it's gonna make us like millions of dollars. And and all the revenue is distributed to
Iagon holders. So you guys are gonna get fucking stacks, bro. Wait, I thought that the money
was coming from the lawsuit. It's it's every the the story has to change over and over
and over because people when they when the partnership narrative comes, people ask,
where's the partnership? Where's the partnership money? And they're like, well, well, you know,
in the meantime, okay, guys, we got the lawsuit, guys. Guys, you you know you're making some points
about Iagon, but I think, um, and I like I I need those are your perspectives.
I think generally speaking, what you know the criticism you're sharing about this Phil
is like essentially how a shit ton of actors just in Web three generally behave
and have been behaving on Karana, and I think the second year of governance is where a lot
of chickens come home to to roost. So I'm super stoked that you know Midgard not being done in
inverted commas on the on the proof of achievement stuff is just like an admin thing.
So I'm stoked that that's going to get delivered, but I think there's going to be a shit ton
of stuff that has either been promised and not delivered, under delivered,
or we're going to get a shit ton of excuses like, oh yeah, well you know
like the the token price dropped, but you know we did agree to take the the ADA cost
at a 50 cent level, and we were ready to take all of the upside, but now that there's a downside,
well you know what are we going to do? Can we get little bailouts? And and that that is a part
where like I'm curious to see what's going to happen and how the ecosystem is going to receive that.
And then on the other hand, I think there's Or there's going to be yeah,
but or there's going to be some interesting stuff with like the funding vehicles, right?
Like Build a Dow tried two different cohorts. I think the first one had like a lot
of mixed approaches. They seem to have iterated or say they've iterated stuff in cohort two.
So let's see. Catalyst is dead. That thing only ran up until you know fund fourteen,
and there's a whole bunch of things to work from the ecosystem. It's broadly dead, right? Oh,
we heard it here first, folks. Official now. Another piece has spoken. I don't know, like guys,
like what? What are you? What are you trying to make me say? Like, one fifteen
and sixteen are returned to the treasury. So, like, what the fuck is Carlos going to do this year?
Well, we have you here, okay. And I don't care who's employee of what, right?
We're just community members in this stage because talk is cheap and give me,
give me more Ada so I become more of a community member. Me too. I need more of that shit
because the whole time I've been here, needs more Ada. If I got a thousand Ada per year
that I've been here, I'd have six thousand Ada, more than I have right now. But and.
But my question is, okay, cool. Tell me. Now that you guys are going to take control,
the vote I think is dominant, right? To see if taking over Catalyst is that correct? Yeah.
So I mean, look, like the if you if you check the the info action, it's essentially to hand over
the administration of Catalyst. It's not football club, but whatever the fuck they've got,
they had down in the Cayman Islands as like the holding entity for the for the funding vehicle.
Like port that over to CF, right? And like the what's been shared publicly is essentially, hey guys,
CF is picking this up, and you know, fund fifteen and sixteen are getting getting returned to
Treasury, and we're going to administer fourteen all the way backwards. So, like when I read that,
you know, my my my first instinct is, well, if fifteen and sixteen aren't happening,
what the fuck's happening with catalyst? So for the ecosystem, right? So we we've been looking at
this in the in the ecosystem funding working group under Intersect budgets. I mean,
product committee. And initially, what we were looking to do was to take a a corpus of work
by this guy called Sov, who'd worked on a bunch of DAOs and grant vehicles in the EVM space,
including Gitcoin. And he actually got a Catalyst proposal funded in Fund I think fourteen.
And you can look you can look at it. It's called Funding Assessment and Impact Framework.
And essentially, what he did for for this project, which is almost complete,
I think he's just waiting to hand in the last milestone. Is he did a full diagnostic
of Cardano's funding landscape. So, what he did is look at all of the intersect funded proposals
from last year, a whole bunch of Catalyst funds that were done in previous years,
and the first cohort of Builder DAO, and a few kind of interviews with some
of the other representatives or stakeholders involved in some funding vehicle,
whether it's like the the open source maintainer stuff or whatever it might be. And essentially,
what he saw were kind of five main gaps or five main issues that we face as an ecosystem.
The first one being that we have no cross mechanism coordination. So you know whatever
the catalyst team was doing last year, and again think of it as like 2025 backwards, right?
So you know the catalyst team was doing its own thing and pulling its own way.
You had IO saying hey like let's do this and let's do that. You had CF saying this,
Imago saying that. You had a whole lot of individual. Builders that were putting forward
treasury withdrawal proposals and all these kind of things, and there's very little ability to,
you know, coordinate. So when it came to the pentad focusing on like critical infrastructure,
that was like one coordination tool. But does that mean that that's appropriate for everything? No.
Another thing that popped up. So the second gap that he identified, and I really encourage you guys,
you know, ahead of budget season, go and take a read about, again, you know, funding. Assessment
and with like the little you know dude that's dragging his butt, not the full word,
impact framework, and like that should be enough stuff that you feed your LLMs, and you can be like,
okay, this is what an independent expert's assessment of Carano's ecosystem landscape looks like.
So then the second thing is, he was looking at data silos, right? So beyond the fact
that between different funding mechanisms we lack coordination. We also have data silos, right?
We have this like huge, big sheets that's accessible for like catalysts proposals.
I don't know if you've ever come come come through it, but it's a it's a real goldmine in terms
of intent and delivery, and so the gap in between in terms of what Carano has funded as an ecosystem
to the tune of over 150 million dollars in like four five years, right? Since Catalyst kicked off,
I think in well yeah 2021 properly. So there's that. Then you have like the different intersect kind
of treasury trackers and all these kind of things. So whether it's the Sunday swap one
or like a few others, you have an NCL tracker. So you have a bunch of data silos, right? So like,
how the hell can we Coordinate better if we don't even have an aggregate form of data
or an aggregate source of data, source of truth for the ecosystem. Then there's
the very obvious thing that we know was the case, which is that we lack some level
of a strategic alignment, right? So we didn't have an ecosystem vision for things,
and we started having one with Carano 2030, and it still needs a lot of love.
But I think already having like a general kind of north star helps at least kind of see
where we're going. But that north star needs to be made way brighter, way clearer,
way more defined this year, and that's what product committee is working on.
The fourth one was actually inconsistent accountability. So essentially,
accountability systems not actually meeting the size and scope of particular proposals. So you know,
like. With intersect, you'll have like you know everything kind of treated in the same manner.
Or with Catalyst, what you guys will know way better, is like the same approach to proof
of achievement, to review, to all these kind of things was applied unilaterally
and on in a standardized manner. Whether you are dealing with an enterprise proposal,
whether you are dealing with a technical proposal, like you had a one size fits all approach,
which doesn't really make sense, right? Like if you have a ten thousand dollar, I don't know,
education workshop proposal that's funded, it will need to be inherently Early
will need to be managed from an accountability perspective, different to like
a multi-million dollar, you know, enterprise pilot or integration or whatever it is.
And then the last bit, which is should be pretty unsurprising for everybody,
pretty much seventy-five percent of funding on Cardano has gone to the West,
and so here this is like Western, like you know, Europe, Japan, plus the US,
twenty-five percent going to other places. So this is based on like either team location.
And or team focus, right? And like, I'd really encourage you guys to go
and take a read for this of this diagnostic because it's like it's stuff
that we should all actually be clued up about. And we're going to try to ramp up
some educational activities with the working group and with the committee to socialize these kinds
of things together with a plan of like what to actually do with this information
or what we could do with this information. But I think in the first instance,
I'd really encourage you guys to take a look at this and just run it through your LLMs
if you don't feel like reading, you know, ten twenty pages. And so that's what we were looking at
initially within the working group, and looking at how we could take those experts' recommendations
and provide some form of a proposal to the Corano community for how we could approach this together,
not as you know a highly super workshop thing that doesn't kind of go anywhere
and just has like a nice process but no nice output. So like, how do we come together
as an efficient structure as a working group? Look at the recommendations that is set out
and build out some suggestions and recommendations for the ecosystem to actually implement
what came out of the diagnostic. That's what we started doing, and then you know Catalyst News
came up, and it was like, oh well, shit. That is a very strategic thing we need to do,
and we need to figure out as an ecosystem. You know, how do we how do we coordinate better?
How do we ensure that there's some level of aggregate data that we can use?
How do we ensure that there's strategic alignment with what we're doing?
How do we ensure that accountability matches? The needs of a particular proposal,
and how do we ensure that there's, I'd say, I wouldn't want to call it a fairer,
but a more representative geographic distribution of funds. And so we started looking into this,
and then Catalyst happened. And when when when Catalysts the news came up that hey,
like Catalyst is going to go to the CF so that it can work on Fund 14 backwards, and for sixteen,
fifteen, and sixteen popped up. Well, obviously, you know, some of the first conversations we had
was like, well. By now, the ecosystem would have had at least somewhere around 20 million ADA.
They would have expected that to flow out into the ecosystem. That's one.
Then you have an expectation of an additional 20 million that would have flowed out of Fund 16.
So what we're left with is a longer NCL that's going from well, whenever it was decidedly voted on
and recognized to June 2027, with the same amount of ADA at the depths of the bear markets,
where you know it seems like. We're about to head into like an absolute free-for-all
in the intercycle budget process, and we're not going to coordinate well
unless we hyper-centralize around founding entities and pentat stuff,
which I'm not particularly hyped about. I think I don't like the idea of genesis keys plus two,
you know, driving this kind of stuff. I do think we can coordinate differently,
but that's that's my personal take. Are we going to align strategically? Well, you know,
everybody's fucking aligned strategically, Alex. If we don't, we're fucked. Just being real. So, so,
so I agree. I agree, right? So, so one of the things that we're looking into right now is like,
how do we, how do we not fuck up right now? And how do we ensure that when 2027 comes along, we have
clear answers, clear processes and mechanisms that we we can coordinate effectively,
that we have the right data, that we have strategic alignment, that we have
consistent accountability measures, and that we have a better bit of geographic approaches. So
where we got to was the timing challenge, right? So to get things done,
you need a you know get some teams to do the work. So we were looking at okay,
can we get this guy funded? Through the product committee, through Intersect,
through the Intersect budget process, but that means having a high level of uncertainty with
with the funding, right? Because anything can happen through Ecclesia and the voting
and all these kind of things. Secondly, should he be successful in in doing this? And again,
I'd really like to hear you guys' opinions of the funding assessment and impact framework he came up
with, because we're looking to work with him again as like the coordinator for a funded facilitator
for this next process. The other part is even if he does get funded, and you know by June, July,
he knows that money will flow out of the intersect budget by August or September,
which is what's you know written on the intersect website. Well, that that means that you know at
the earliest he's happy to take like a trust me, bro, we'll pay you later type of thing,
and then he gets started in like June, July, or he only starts in August, September
when he actually has money in the bank and these things kick off. And honestly,
for us as an ecosystem. That is an issue because these are questions that
we need to answer like right now. That we needed to answer actually before this should hit the fan
with Catalyst. This is something we needed to answer last year, but maybe we weren't focused on
that. And now you might wonder like, why the hell do we need this random dude come in
and you know facilitate this process? From my perspective, we need an independent view
because we've been so like the Cardano folk that are here mostly been around for like you know
three, four, five, six years. You know, Esco, Esco gets six thousand ADA
because a thousand ADA a year. Congrats, Esco. And we need some fresh eyes to not only mitigate the
you know inherent biases that we all have as like different speaking heads
and builders in the ecosystem. But actually, to I see it as a way that we can inherently leverage
our bias, our individual bias, and be treated in a similar, in a you know almost level fashion,
right? Because if you have CF or IMO or IOG or driving or any other you know entity that is not
a founding entity driving this process, by virtue of this, it would inherently be
a a captured process, right? You could always have this kind of conflict of interest perspective
and all these kind of things. Now. To balance this with the fact that this needs to happen soon,
and this guy needs to be funded so that we can support him to do the work that he needs to do,
I am looking into finding some budget from within CF because I see it as CF's duty
to like you know contribute this kind of stuff. You know, it's it's it's like we're I see CF as
like one of these stewards of Cardano. It's a nonprofit, so like I see it as like well
within its wheelhouse. But one thing I would want to make sure of is. That there is this layer
of accountability and connectivity with the community, and that's why like working this
through Intersect, through the working group, through the product committee,
I think is super important. Because at the end of the day, Intersect is a community-led entity.
As much as I've you know crapped on it in the past, and as much as John fucking hates them, or me,
or whoever, I I think okay, love you lots, John. But like what I mean is essentially
a very important part of this is like finding a way to root this with the community,
but not Take too long to get shit done. Like we can't use community engagement
and consultation as an excuse to deliver too slowly. I think we did great stuff
with Carano Twenty Thirty. I don't know, and it's far from perfect. And I'll be the first to attack
very different aspects that could be improved. But that's what the the committee is working on,
and they've they've heard enough of my moaning on these kinds of things. Well, Alex, Alex,
who is on the yeah who's on the product committee? Well, it could be you, bro. No, guys. I want.
I want good people. I want good people on product. Who's on the product committee? So I,
I agree with almost everything you said. Like KPIs, number one most important thing we need
as an ecosystem is KPIs, right? Absolutely. Having having funding mechanisms,
any type of funding mechanism without measurable outcomes is going to fail. And we need
standardized KPIs. It can't be CBDAO where Iagon says my KPI is the number
of enterprise partnerships, right? That that's not. No, it needs to be.
It needs to be top down KPIs. Everyone. Yes. The second thing is we we do need external eyes, right?
We need people from other ecosystems. That's a problem that I've been talking about forever.
Where Cardano Maxies are just like bachelors are awful. Meanwhile, in every other ecosystem,
like in Ethereum, right? The the number one. But gravity is kind of cool for being bachelors. Okay,
but the number one. I mean, Cardano has this inception, this idea that bachelors are awful.
Yet in Ethereum, the number one. Absolute number one, most loved protocol is CowSwap for solving
the MEV problem in Ethereum, right? And it's like in a world where we live in a Cardano void,
and everyone's like, wow, everyone hates batters. Uniswap is so much better,
and Ethereum so much better because it doesn't have batters. In Ethereum, they say, oh my God,
all these dexes suck dick because I can't run away from MEV. MEV is like the eye of Ceron.
That's not true. The protocol controls. That's not true. No no no no no no no! Oh my God!
Before you guys argue, bro, I know I know myself to be on the product committee, bro. Come on,
Kelly. Listen, listen. Guys, guys. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Before, before. I think it's Phil. Phil,
Phil, Phil. Phil, dude. Okay, guys, guys. Hey, oh, nah, nah. Let's play nice, you motherfuckers.
Holy shit! Michele came up with the anti-gravity. The planet started flying out of the fucking orbit
of the sun. Who is me? So y'all need to chill the fuck out and just be nice to each other. Damn,
Riley, I'm gonna get Riley up here. I'm not. I'm not saying anything about the race.
And I was asking a question, and Phil, you just talked right over me, dude. I get that, like,
you have more clout than anyone else in this ecosystem. Oh my god, dude. Okay, guys, guys, guys,
guys, guys, guys, guys. Okay, so John, John, I'll, I'll do, I'll do my last. Okay, so I'll do,
I'll do my last skit on like. Yo, who's muting? Brother, I don't know who is on
the product committee. No, I think it's demo. I think it's demo. He just got angry for everyone here
in the space. He's okay. So who is on the product committee? Okay, so so who is on
product committee? Uh, and why that somewhat matters. Um, so let me just quickly.
Can you believe it, guys? It's like 9 p.m. And about to crack on with another three hours
of Cardano shit. Um, I love this this ecosystem, man. So there's so on the committee,
and I just remember. I was the most anti-intersect person. No, I think there were
more anti-intersect people back in the older days. But you know, product committee showed me
that there is potential there. We just need to figure out how best to find efficiencies
and effectiveness with committees. So, what you have as chair and co-chair right now is
so chair Sam Leathers, co-chair Carl Solomon. They've been fantastic. Secretary Lorenzo,
and then on the committee you have Georgia, who sits here at the the foundation.
Tober Christian Schmitz. None of these people have built any products. So, okay,
so this is the issue. This is the main issue that I like personally. I'm trying to resolve at
Intersect, which is what we want. The kind, at least, you know, if I had you know
absolute king-making power and I I could be the absolute tyrant of Intersect and answer to no one,
but I was illuminated enough not to fuck up. My view is, we have James. We have a few people.
One of the main issues that I see with Intersect is essentially what you want to attract is.
Experts in the ecosystem that are you know good at doing marketing, that are good at
like running products, or have some product experience, or whatever.
And that you know product is probably the most like Swiss Army knife committee there. You have TSC,
etc., etc. The issue is paying people is not the right incentive. We always jump
that compensation thing. The real incentive is making sure that the time of people of experts that
you want to attract is matched by the value that they pull out of that committee,
that working group. A lot of committees last year, they were doing all of the heavy lifting.
They were doing actual operational work. You're talking about economic incentives
for intended outcomes. So, so, so, so, for example, the approach that I'm I'm advocating for
within product and within other committees as well is to say, hey guys, like,
take a look at what you need to get done as a committee. I'm just saying the problem is scope
that out. Get requirements. And then get a service provider or set of service providers to bid for
this thing. And then what you do is people that have expertise but not a lot of time can just spend
their time doing oversight and advisory. You guys are not equipped to make these decisions.
He's not saying they're going to make those decisions. He's saying, which I agree with,
they're going to find people to make who are capable of making those decisions.
This is what Exactly. Where do I sign up, bro? This is what. This is how Solana Foundation works.
This is how Ethereum Foundation works. They find a DeFi expert. They say this guy is going to run.
This guy knows DeFi. So look, Clark, if you want to sign up, and he's going to Ethereum Foundation
hires founders. That's what he's saying. That's exactly what he's saying.
They're going to find people and pay them. They are on the decision-making team. You're talking.
You're talking about this. You're paying for a full-time. No, no, no. It's the same thing. No,
it's not. Contracting someone out is not the same thing as hiring someone as an like.
A full-time person with decision-making responsibility. I'm sure the contract. No,
they want to maintain decision-making responsibility, and contract it out because they don't have
the expertise to make these decisions. No one listen to me. The guy who's head of DeFi at
Ethereum Foundation has no decision making. They listen to him. They hired him because they he has
all the decision making authority because they hire him. It's the same here.
If you hire a contractor to run DeFi here and you disagree with them, it doesn't.
You're going to listen to them because that's why you're paying the money, right?
Because they know better than you on the subject matter. So it would be it would be entirely insane.
No, if they don't have decision making power. No, they they have delegated authority.
You're paying them to do something. No, their employer is going to have leverage over them,
and then if they think CF, they're not going to listen. CF. The whole point of hiring them is
that CF is saying, "I don't know better than you on this, so I'm I'm hiring you to make
these decisions." The same thing is happening with Draper, and if you don't think that's
what's happening with Draper, then you're. You think that Draper is is beholden to CF
for like right now Draper's kissing CF. Oh God no, sure. But the second CF gets funded,
the second Draper gets funded, they're not beholden to CF at all, right?
They're gonna do their own thing. They've never been beholden to CF at all, either, guys. No,
but but of course, right now they're gonna kiss your ass because they want to get voted.
But but after they're voted, of course, what what? That's that's essentially the same thing.
It's a contractor relationship. No, because CF championed them to to get voted. No,
they don't give a fuck after they have the money. They're gonna make the decisions that
they think are the best. Of course they do. Well, yeah, they're going to make the decisions
that they that they that they're incentivized to make, and that will qualify them
for a second tranche and a third tranche in the eyes of the D reps. Right, this is aligning
economic incentives with intent. Yeah, this is what we need. They're not living in in reality, dude.
That's how business works. What do you mean? Why would why would they have to kiss CF to ask
if they've already gotten funded? What's the point of listening to CF? They have the money. What?
Why do they need CF at that point? They they don't care about. I could I could see
them leveraging CF in a lot of different ways, right? Like there is a there is some value there.
The in the same way that they could leverage other people within the ecosystem. Yeah,
but they're not beholden to you. They'll just no, God, no.
They they would never they never were like look guys to like this how business works. No,
they they have the the incentive right now is to kiss CF's ass so that they get funded, right? So
that CF will push them to get funded. That ends immediately when they get funded. Of course,
the the the the whole economic incentive model is that. They make more money if their investments
succeed, right? So what they're going to do is, a business does not care about relationships
like this. Businesses operate in a pragmatic, rational world where they look at their bottom line.
And if CF says, "I don't like this project," and Draper sees, you know,
this is going to make them a 10% ROI. They're going to invest in it. If the head of IT brings me
into like a huge consulting, you are not a company. You are not Draper. I was no, no,
but you are a single person who can make decisions based on emotion. Draper is not
a not a single person who makes decisions based on emotion. We see, and they they're not
in a contract at all. They they're they have like ultimate decision making power. Yeah,
they're going to make decisions based on their bottom line. Guys, guys, guys, you do understand?
The business hired me for a contract, and the person who bought me brought me in
and signed my invoice was the was the VP of IT, right? I'm gonna, and they're asking me for
for a cons a consult, right? Like, like to to honestly say what I feel is best for their business,
right? I'm still, if if the VP of IT wants me to include something like for his own budget
or his own initiative, like I'm definitely gonna try and work that in there. Like he's my client.
Yes, the company is my client, guys. But it's like, like literally, literally the the role
of the CF, John, John, John. The the the role of the CF in this entire Draper thing
is mostly just to serve. Need as a business to engage with the Cardano world, right? Are not good.
Yeah, you guys have not built good. No, let me, let me, John, let me, let me, let me finish, please.
Like Draper came up and was like, we'd really be keen to kind of scale up what we did with Draper U
on Catalyst. That gave us a taste of like what it means to partner with the ecosystem.
But as like a a regulated, a potentially regulated fund, an operator of regulated funds in the US.
And just like this is fresh, fresh for us, how the heck do we navigate Cardano governance?
Like the only stakeholders that understand how to navigate Cardano governance, um,
from at an enterprise level, are people that have been existing on Cardano for the past few years.
Like to everybody else, you tell them, hey, like you can part. Like everybody else that's working in
crypto, that's working in Web three, they their their their target operating model,
which is consistent across the industries. Let's go to the foundation. Let's go to the labs.
Let's cut a deal, and then let's let's let's execute. It just simply doesn't work with Cardano
in that way, and you know, essentially, you know, essentially, you have all of this kind of stuff,
and that's super foreign, like magic internet money that then lands on your thing,
and you have this thing with like D reps and like an entire parliament that's on chain,
and this treasury thing, and like this, it's so insanely complex. And CF's role, the way I saw it,
is like okay, like let's let's let's these guys are interested to do business on Cardano. Yeah,
but forget about the Draper thing. I'm fine with that. I was just using it as an example. Yeah,
I'm just saying. That we need to have people who actually know what this ecosystem needs,
like on these committees, and we don't. Like you guys, like I'm sorry, you just don't. There's you.
You're completely disconnected from the reality of ecosystem builders and what
we need to be successful and grow this ecosystem. And you're all just sitting.
We need to feel on the committee. I I really disagree with that blanket statement, John.
I I'm I'm on X. I'm on X almost results, Alex. Over the past seven years,
and you've got the same fucking people, dude. Like I like honestly, dude. It's CF is not look.
I've I've been at CF. I've been at CF since 2020, like the post Parsons era.
I've the the CF that was in 2020 was inherently different to the one in 2021.
That was mostly like 30 people, give or take, with Chum. In 2022, it scaled a little bit more
with some engineers. CF tried to make a couple of calls regarding, you know,
building out some some technology things. Some of these things were good calls.
Others of these things were like some good calls in the sense of like supporting the Aiken,
the Aiken builders, and all this kind of stuff, and incubating that. Some other bad calls, you know,
whether it was like the Georgia wine thing or whatever, that that thing ended up being.
It's not my favorite, or like some some of these other things, right? But I don't think
it's fair to just say, hey, like. This is you know CF has been exactly the same for the past
you know seven years, which has not been the case. Like seven years ago, CF was like deep in
Guardians of Corano times, and you know it's not about defending the institution.
Like there's a lot of things CF does that I'm I'm not happy about. I I will speak about
them publicly. I will speak even more loud directly in the Slack channels. Right?
There's a lot of things that it does well, but I fundamentally disagree with this equivalence
of saying, well, you know what, you guys are super disconnected, and making this equivalence
between CF and the product committee. Some people at CF. Are more connected than others,
but just absolutely based on some of the things that you and like Serni say on the timeline,
like I feel like you guys are just in a different. No, like you just don't like me bull
posting about like spending more money, dude. You you guys are living in a different. No,
but the the whole point is that they're not. Alex will say he's not a DeFi expert,
and what I'm hearing from him is good. They're saying we're going to go find people who are
qualified to do things. And we're going to listen to them, right? We can't be.
We like nobody in the ecosystem has the ultimate of everything, and we don't. Before we continue,
I just want to say one thing. Like, oh, am I mugged? Can you guys not hear me? No, we can hear you.
We can hear. Oh, you can't hear me. Okay, I just wanted to say I really,
I appreciate Alex being able to take a balanced perspective. A few moments ago,
he was willing to say some of the places where CF has made mistakes and some of the places
where he thinks CF has done the right thing, and I think that being able to take
a balanced perspective at the company that you work at is really important,
especially in an ecosystem like this. So. Mad props to you for that, Alex.
That's that's all I wanted to get in there. I'm I'm the first guy to shit on CF about everything,
but in these cases, yeah, I mean, like guys, like this thing is it's all sensible. What he's saying,
I'm just saying, CF needs to be a place where ecosystem builders can go to get genuine support.
Like, and we should feel like CF wants. You know everybody to have the best chance of success
on Cardano, and like we just do not have that. You got your attitude towards that. You'll get that.
It's not an attitude towards. It's that their their their thing is not DeFi.
It's not what the current builders are doing, and so, you know, they're they're committing to
basically saying yes, we this isn't our thing. We'll go find people that that's their thing.
If it's not their thing, then whose thing is it? Because that's not I O V's thing. As a VC, dude,
like they've got. I would want to see GF hire like a head of DeFi, like Ethereum Foundation, right?
Where it's just like yeah, I'd I'd like to see that too. Look, like Pierre,
Pierre's moved into a role that focuses. Yeah, I love Pierre. You know that, but I mean,
Web three doesn't make a pretty bullish signal already, right? I do agree that like having some
in-house capabilities is also valuable, but I I want to You know, just saying, hey,
we should do things like the Ethereum Foundation, because the Ethereum Foundation,
what you also have, are like repeat founders that essentially don't ever have to work a day
in their lives again, and then can go contribute to the mission. You know,
beyond Cardano being actually sustainable from an economics perspective, right?
Like our security budget being matched by our transaction fees plus other revenue sources.
I think it's not in Cardano 2030, but I think we'll be in a really good place as an ecosystem when.
We can do the same things that Ethereum founders do when they pivot to a job at
the Ethereum Foundation. Like once that kind of flow happens, it just means that we have
so many founders that have been successful that people can essentially take a more chill time
or a more strategic, you know, long-term view. I wouldn't say chill, but more strategic, long-term,
non-commercial view on certain things. Up until this point, we don't even have that, right?
Like this ecosystem. Again, please, I think, please help me to please help me correct myself.
But I think the only exit we've actually had in the ecosystem. Is like Alessandro, you know,
from like Barry and like doing that NFT stuff. Because I used to think Charles did an exit
on Carano, but like technically not, because he's still around and now he's he's building out
Midnight, right? So like even that dude Contratti. But what I'm saying is like we need to get to
that point, and I think Intersect and these committees, if staffed with the appropriate experts,
And if these experts' time is respected for their expertise and for their advice,
instead of actually just giving them an additional operational task on top of whatever
they're building on Cardano, we can get to a lot of places. So you know, Clark.
The problem is that you're looking towards Card. You're basically saying we need these people,
but we have no one that's done it on Cardano, and it's like we we need to attract these people,
right? Like for instance, what Solana Foundation did is they got a ton of the ex huge DeFi
exits from Ethereum, and they're like, you're the DeFi guy now. And you know we need to bring in
outside talent from other other ecosystems. It's like here's how we're going to up our DeFi game,
right? This is the guy who will yeah. But at the same point, it's like, is it really our?
Is it really the ecosystem builder's fault that Cardano is not more commercially successful,
or is it like a shared responsibility? Like, can you really sit here and think?
I think it certainly. I'm not pointing to think anybody. You guys are full of it, dude. No,
that's not what we're doing. That's really not what we're doing. Like the world is huge, right?
It would be like if you're a small founder, right, of a company in Web2 outside of crypto,
and you get an opportunity to talk to like you know Bill Gates, right?
It's like who do you want at a foundation that's there to provide support in the domain that
you're building, right? You want someone that's done it successfully. Yeah,
but we're not going to get Bill Gates. I mean, come on. You don't. You're not getting Bill Gates,
but you'll get someone that's done it successfully. I think the problem is,
is that it's like you like this eco, like the founding entities have no respect.
Very little respect for the ecosystem builders because we're not we're not
you know financially successful. But like, where are the bottom decks? Like,
I don't feel it's our team. It's not about respect, John. My point is, I'm a DeFi builder here too,
right? I want someone from Ethereum at the like someone who's had success,
someone who's you know exited a major protocol on Ethereum who knows the DeFi industry,
knows the demand. That's who you want deciding where funds go. Like, why can't we do both? Like,
why can't we have I don't know, dude. You can have committees, but if you're like, if if we're like,
let's pick someone to decide where fun to to manage like where DeFi, the future of DeFi
on Cardano should be, right? If you're gonna pick a guy, so guys, I'll give you,
I'll give you a very concrete example. I'll give you a very concrete example about. Yeah,
but you can't do it. You can't do it. We know. Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can. Nobody. No. So look,
John. John. So you can go hire someone from Ethereum, but they're not.
The problem is it's not about Cardano, right? It's DeFi. That's right. Yeah.
It's about users of DeFi do not care about Cardano. They don't care about Solana.
They don't care about Ethereum. They care where the ABI is. They care where the best app is.
Where the financial vehicles are. There's unique challenges and bottlenecks to build.
We can solve that stuff. Alex is literally saying. Oh, when you guys Alex is literally saying
we will we will fill in the gaps, right? That's the whole point. Is that the operational stuff
and the gaps will be solved, right? Even the technical bottlenecks have not been solved.
What is the technical bottleneck? The throughput and like the congestion that this chain gets.
Ethereum has shitty has the shittiest throughput you could ever imagine. Well,
they have a you know network effect. No, they have an immense amount of financial vehicles
and an immense amount of yield generating protocols. Right. There is a reason
why people deploy capital there, not because they like Ethereum, because they make money doing it.
But they were the first, you know, alt. Really. What do you? What is that? What is that?
Solana Solana built back from eight dollars. Network effect. We have protocols on Cardano that are.
More successful than others, it's not because the product's better, because the team's smarter.
It's because they have network. No, you're talking about a small marginal difference.
You you're not talking about an order of magnitude. You don't just become like
a multi billion dollar company just because you're you're first to market, right? Look at Yahoo.
Yeah, but look at look at guys. Look at Solana. The the the reality is,
Cardano has locked itself into. A treasury dependency as an ecosystem, right?
And we need to find our own wings, our new ways of allocating and coordinating capital,
so that we can actually fit a go-to-market for Cardano as a whole. Ethereum did a lot of building
in the bear after crypto winter, and it yielded results.
Solana had a a massive go-to-market approach that they built from eight dollars up.
Everybody thought Solana was tickets after FTX, and they came back in the biggest way possible.
And you may disagree with some of their tactics, some of their tech, whatever.
Their go-to-market is on point. And one of the stats that really kind of struck me was when I was in
Berlin last year for the Blockchain Week, and Solana Super Team was in the same building as us.
And globally, I'll never forget these stats, at least the ratio where they were they they fielded
how much funding was put into you know Super Teams globally and the results. And essentially,
it was something like. 20 million dollars in grants, 75 million dollars in investments, right?
Because they go to market, and the the way that they ran the super teams,
and this is something we ought to study as an ecosystem, was super KPI driven. It wasn't just hey,
let's set up a bunch of community hubs here, there, and everywhere, and like fund them
and hope for the best. No, Solana's super teams is fucking cutthroat to the point where it's like
if you're not delivering the results that the ecosystem expects you, well,
that the foundation expects you to deliver. You don't get funding. Good luck. That's the market.
Whereas on Cardano, what we've built is a level of dependency on the next tranche of funding, right?
And this is where we're stuck as an ecosystem. We do not receive. They also have.
If CF does not deliver, Solana gives massive subsidies to teams. The difference is that they give
the subsidies to teams based on KPI. Exactly. Solana Foundation delegation. You you right?
They'll give it to people that are that are grinding. I'm tired of CF talking like this.
What the fuck have you guys done to learn? Esco, esco, esco, esco. Is this is
this John Spacing walk? He's talking about over everyone. I don't understand.
I couldn't imagine someone hating CF more than me, John. I don't. I don't even. I don't hate CF.
It's just like it's just like you guys act like you haven't. He's not acting like that.
He's acting very very modest, bro. Like I like I'm I'm doing I'm doing a ton of stuff
on the ecosystem funding side of things. I have that Cardano experience myself, right?
I wrote my bloody dissertation about you know blockchain governance and the case study
of the prototype with Catalyst, right? And through the years, I've been working on this.
I can tell you, and I'm humble enough to to know that there are way bigger experts than me
in the crypto space. When it comes to capital delivery, capital productivity, which is why,
with the product committee, we formed this working group. That's allowed
us to actually attract experts from the ETH space, guys that have done bankless DAO,
that have seen how things worked and didn't work within Polygon. Within zk,
I forgot the the name of the thing, but whatever, like a whole bunch of different things,
and they can bring these insights to Cardano, and that's you know, and this is just me having like
relative expertise of Cardano some governance and some funding stuff, but we need to couple this up
with external actors that know shit from other ecosystems, not so that we can replicate what
where they failed, but actually kind of build on those successes and build on their learnings. No,
I understand. And we actually, you know, and the last thing I want to I want to make a point on
is Phil mentioned earlier that Solana was aggressively going after, you know,
these successfully exited DeFi founders, and then bringing them over
so that they could replicate this on Solana. In this case, we have an opportunity to do this
somewhat on the cheapest corner. We actually have a massive opportunity right now
to differentiate ourselves, differentiate ourselves because of our governance, not in spite of it.
Polkadot has absolutely recentered around the Web3 Foundation and Parity Parity Tech,
and around Gavin as a founder. They see they seem to be taking the approach of of what IO did
a few years ago, trying to like you know turn into a venture studio with products and whatnot.
Some of those were successes. Some of those, you know, like it was tough times for for IO.
So like they're going to learn. They're going to learn about that in the same way.
You know that CF has you know successes and failures, and the same you know just applies across
the board, right? They're going to iterate forward. So the point that I'm making here is there is
a ton of talent of ecosystem kind of execution actors that are trying to join the Cardano ecosystem.
They've tried to go into the different working groups that intersect,
and there might be value there. There's also two others that two other massive chains
that have kind of recentered a little bit optimism and Arbitrum, and those have been
very commercially focused chains. That and Arbitrum in particular has a lot of history.
It actually predates ours with like a constitution and everything else. But again,
they're re-centralizing, and so Cardano actually has an opportunity to attract the talent
that values, you know, distributed decentralized capital allocation systems like ours. For free,
just we need to find a way to attract them in a more direct manner. Like I've I've done this
for the ecosystem funding side of things, but it's I think it'd pre be pretty replicable
for other verticals, whether it be DeFi or whatever you know, events, marketing, comms, etc.
I'm just saying, I'm gonna go real fast and then I'll step down because I've got other stuff to do.
I'm just saying, you've got to understand after building here for four years
and dealing with all the shenanigans and shortcomings like of the founding entities that
like we're not too keen to hear things like, if you don't perform these KPIs, you don't get shit,
and it's just like. From my perspective, it's like who the fuck are you to be saying anything like
as an organization? Because CF has been extremely disappointing, extremely, extremely,
extremely disappointing to me as an ecosystem builder. Like you guys have literally done nothing
for us, right? I mean, I have amazing conversations with Pierre. The four years of building here,
you guys have done nothing for us. You have not subsidized anything. You have not done anything
for us. Nothing. So, what kind of foundation are you exactly? Because in terms of organic growth,
like C Swap is number four in transactions on Cardano, and the project
above us have all been heavily subsidized with millions and millions of dollars. And so,
if CF isn't going to help a project like C Swap that that shows promise in organic growth,
and you're going to talk to us like that, where it's like, oh, if you don't do this,
you you get shit. When do we get to hold CF accountable for the underperformance?
Because it's embarrassing. Like, like CF has been an embarrassment over
the past four years since we've been building here. So, um, I, I think this might be a good time
for me to chime in on two things. No, no, no. Here, here. No, I, I'm just gonna speak for. Um, I'm,
I'm actually gonna just say what I want to say. What the fuck? I'm back. I'm back. I'm back.
I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back.
I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back.
I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back.
I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back.
I'm One thing is, I'm gonna agree with something John said earlier, and I've I had my hand up
for a minute to say that, but I want to also chime in on this just a little bit,
and it's not even my perspective; it's it's the perspective of someone at the CF I pinned up top.
So Ktor's made a post going over you know 33 different things that the CF has done in the past year,
and you could make a You know, contending statement on a couple of them.
I think there's a couple of them that I would argue maybe shouldn't be on there,
but I think for the most part it's a good list, and I think the CF
has been doing a pretty good job overall. And that's just my perspective. But again,
there's there's this list up above. The thing I wanted to agree with you on though is like in terms
of network effects, I don't think it's always time based, right? Like Sunday swap launched before
Min swap, but Min swap I think has more TVL and volume, right? And so the the way I see it is
it comes down to when when you talk about network effects, a lot of the times it comes down
to working with specific people. There's a a shipping optimization platform that got
Saudi Aramco Trading Company as a client, and obviously that sort of is a de facto win, right?
It's it's hard to beat you if you have like the biggest user of this type of system in the world
using it, right? So that that's all I wanted to drop, but um, sorry, John,
I I don't mean to like you know take over. Oh, don't worry, John doesn't care.
He'll talk right over you. Apparently, goddamn, John, what were you doing when I was gone?
No people were talking over me. John was just saying how disappointed he was with the CF.
I'm sorry you've had like such a negative experience, John. Well, it's not just me;
it's every ecosystem builder. Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, guys, let's get some of the hands,
other perspectives here. Michele has been here. Anti-gravity. Hey, Michele has been here
with his hand up, waiting because he has the anti-gravity propulsion. With the batteryless decks
coming soon, we're gonna give him a. We're gonna give him a run. We already lost Phil. Phil said,
"Fuck this shit. I gotta go." You know, that's kind of blame that. Shut up! Fuck!
I'm like trying to be funny and like reel it all back in,
and it's just like bow, bow, bow, bow, like fuck. Mikale, go ahead, dude.
No, no, I don't hear Mikale. If he's speaking, can you guys move? Can you guys move? Oh,
we can hear you now. Yeah, yeah, good. Okay. Yeah, no. So, apart apart from the bachelores
and bachelor stuff, I want to chime in in the intersect discourse. One thing
about like everybody tells me, okay, go participate in intersect. Why would I? Honestly,
because do do the bachelor first, bro. No, I want to talk about this now. The the
why would I participate in intercept? There is there is so much so much incompetence,
and I'm from outside. I I have to interact with it, right? Why would I join
and participate participate in something and and spend my time over there where my my voice
will probably not be heard. And I I have no no power at all.
I can just go there one hour one hour a week, spend my hour there,
and then nothing will be achieved. Michele, I I much prefer my my hours be spent
be spent writing code and and actually delivering stuff that I believe to be used. Michele,
what what would when you when you go go participate when you go go participating in in intersect,
like to me is just a waste of time. Uh, honestly, you know, honestly. Michele,
can I ask you a question? Yeah. What would make that hour of participation in intersect worth it
for you? Sure, it would it would be worth it if what I say what what I say in that hour has
an actual impact. But hypothetically, where would you see yourself contributing the most
with an intersect? I wouldn't. I wouldn't in the current intersect. I wouldn't see
myself contributing intersect because I can't. It needs it needs to be restructured from
from the ground up. In the current setup, it's too bureaucratic. It's too many committees.
I get lost in intersect. Absolutely, okay, but hypothetically, intersect works perfectly.
It's been restructured, but it still has the same set of committees. What committee would would fit,
you know, your customers? If it has the same same committees, it has not been restructured.
What I'm saying is, it has too many committees. Sir, it has too many committees. I get lost.
I don't know where to go. Yeah, intersect sucks right now. So you say go. You say go
and join intersect. Okay, I join in. Okay, so you're more on the technical side.
So there's like the technical steering committee and a bunch of working groups underneath it.
Would that be? Okay, I join. I join. I join. I join the technical steering committee.
I was there with Andre. I join the technical steering committee. And when when I join
the technical steering committee, what we do is we we talk for an hour, and I say, okay, look, guys,
this thing is uh is dangerous for for the network. I don't think we should implement this thing.
And the response I get is, okay, if you don't like this thing, this thing, just don't use it. No,
I'm saying there is a problem. And and the other seven member in the technical steering committee
say, okay, just don't don't use it. We'll go ahead. So what why why am I joining? Gotcha.
Why am I joining? Gotcha. So not like your your perspective not being heard and.
He just wants to make all the decisions. He's more of a dictator than a committee member. Mikale.
Sure. Okay. We need like a voting token or something. Dalfy everything. No, I was in there, Alex.
I was in there with Andreas, right? Who I really like, right? Who we really got along well,
and we were in the growth and marketing committee, and we were going to be on the steering committee
because Jack picked us to be on the steering committee, and then there was
some bureaucratic decision made where we had to draw straws just so Andreas wasn't
on the steering committee, and then we both were like, "This is fucking bullshit," and we left.
So you don't draw straws remotely. No, Andreas is the COO. I know. I think we have to draw straws,
like be on a fucking growth and marketing committee. And and then the second the second following.
It's a bureaucracy. Yeah, yeah. They didn't want him on the committee on the thing,
so they changed it to drawing straws. So that was it for me. There is the second.
There is the second point of that was mentioned of getting other people,
other ideally successful people. Take decisions from other ecosystems. One of the big problems,
like I would agree, but I would I wouldn't put all all the decision power on those people
if they haven't if they don't don't understand Cardano because let me tell you like most of
like the the DApps that we have DApps quote unquote that we have currently are are not on Cardano
they like most of the DApps that we have at the moment put the state on a single utic so
and then what they are good at doing is building the App-specific infrastructure to manage
that single UTXO. That is not how you build. You build on UTXOs, and so already the people
that are already building on Cardano don't understand how to use Cardano.
I let you imagine people from outside Cardano. What what this what people
from outside Cardano can do is say. Give a more out of out like more ample vision,
but they cannot understand what are the problem of building on Cardano. So there,
like you cannot make you can even if even if we got all the people from Ethereum Foundation,
the entire team and Aziz, and they have all the best application on Ethereum,
they wouldn't understand a thing about Cardano. It is just structurally structurally different.
And they need they need to understand first that that structural difference in order to make
good decisions. Otherwise, they they will they will work with with the old mental model
that doesn't apply, and they will they will be thinking of of making good decision decision
where where the problem that the actual the actual developer is facing is much much much different
than what they think the problem was on Ethereum when they were building in two thousand
and eighteen. So there is also that. So what do we need like translators like technical translators
to be able to bridge other ecosystems. No, you don't need translator. You don't need translator
because translators will will miss information, right? They could be the best translator,
but they will miss information. You have to have people that are actually like understand the bytes
of of a fucking Plutus script. Not not even I can. They have they have to understand
UPLC to just to say a thing. They have to understand. They they you put you put you put in front
of them a cbor of a transaction, and they should tell you in in two seconds. Okay,
this transaction is sending. That's crazy. You guys know, like Neo from The Matrix, right?
Like you know when he got shot by the agent and then he wakes up, he sees things in numbers, bro.
Like that's what needs to happen. My my dads can do that shit, dude. They should be on.
You're the chosen one. You can see seaboard, bro. Holy shit! Not me, man. People, people, yeah,
yeah. We got Dave. We got we got Dave's handle, man. If you ain't no binary code,
and you can't just look at a string and just know exactly what's happening,
don't even come to build on Cardano. It's a fine call. They can't. They can't come.
They can't come to build on Cardano, but they cannot make a decision as if they understand the thing
at the byte level, because because that that's not true. That's not true. So. I don't know.
These are my two cents. Intersect needs to be restructured, and we we need we need people
that actually understand how to build, and not even people on Cardano understand how to build.
Just one last question before we go to Dave, Michele. Like hypothetically, as a builder yourself,
you do infra, you do tooling, you're doing a dex. How would you see structuring your advisory
or your expertise into the Cardano ecosystem, like through Intersect? Should it be reformed? Like,
what what is the ideal scenario for you? Look, I I would I would love to participate in Intersect.
I would, I would really laugh, but when I do, when I do, I'm not like as it's
as if I I wasn't never there. So I don't know, just hypothetically project yourself.
There are so many problems. No more elections. No more elections. The elections are a joke.
So selection, not election. Yes, no elections. There's too few people in intersect,
and it's been invaded by like people. Also, also Sri Lanka. Dreaming down. Yeah. Dreaming,
dreaming down. There are too many people. You don't need that many people.
You got to pick the best people in the ecosystem, the best product people,
the best marketing people, the best Michele people. Like you got to pick the best.
We don't need these elections and CS and IO people and all this and that. It's not good.
It's not decentralized, bro. It's not good. Like merit based is good. To add to that,
Alex has talked all about super teams. What is where is the sense in sticking seven
of supposedly the best, let's say, marketeers? On a marketing committee
where all seven just talk about marketing all day long, or on super teams,
if you have a good marketer, a good product development, a good business development guy,
if you have somebody that's good from like an ops perspective, if you bring together one person with
with a particular discipline and you stick him in a team, those people are then empowered to
actually make a difference. Intersect has been set up as if it's a fucking university department
with professors of physics talking about physics all day long. It's slow moving.
It's not performance driven. And that is where structurally there's a problem with intersect.
You are you are asking people to choose the best of the people who go. You know,
I'm a good marketer. I'll be good. I'll be good at marketing. Yeah,
but you ain't gonna be marketing. In what if you if you're told an hour a week is all
you need to provide to something, it's a waste of an hour. If you're supposedly the best at what
you're doing for something, it's too little time. It's it's too little time.
Anybody who says I'm only spending an hour a week in a committee is not providing value. Right,
it's as simple as that. Yo, guys, I I won the hackathon, guys. Do I have a place
at the the committee room? No, Clark, you're the you're the king. The king is speaking. Everybody,
shut the fuck up. Get get get Clark some votes. Actually, while we're talking about voting,
if we're if we're gonna talk about voting, I want to just iterate something that
I've been saying pretty frequently the past week or so. Um, go vote for Dingo if you're a D rep,
and if you're not a D rep, go ask your D rep if they voted for Dingo yet, because uh,
I think we really need to get that across the line as soon as possible.
I don't really want to have to resubmit their proposal for them. Um. I will I will do that
if I absolutely have to though. So let's let's try and get that over the line.
I know Michaela just submitted his for Pebble and Jiralama recently. So also go take a look
at that one as well. Yeah, let's let's get these proposals looked at, voted on, and you know,
I think. Um. Let me chime in. I've let y'all yap a lot. Shut the fuck up. I've let y'all yap a lot,
dude. Your motherfucker's been going off for a while on the same shit,
and nobody has pointed out what has perpetuated this shit in the ecosystem.
There's a giant amount of so-called fallacy in this whole ecosystem that energy
and money goes into the same shit, even though logically makes no sense. Because once upon a time,
when any new industry comes into effect, and there's a low barrier of entry, you know,
believe that you can, you know, be the one at the top. Okay, don't interrupt me,
because but I want discourse here. You know, once upon a time, Cardano was the Ethereum killer,
and also blah blah blah blah blah. You know, there was an opportunity for all sorts of DApps
in Cardano to be the ones that are now regarded as the Aves, the simple swaps, the whatevers.
We are here now. I'm here six years later, and the industry, because of their their product,
market fit, all this other stuff, has selected those winners. You know, once upon a time,
ten million dollars was a big deal to get USDC, and Cardano chose not to because it believed
that it could have an in-house solution for whatever it was that it wasn't willing to pay
the ten million dollars. And that period of time is now fucking over. Okay,
the sunk cost fallacy of continuing to maintain these things that are miles and miles
and miles stretch away from the dominant companies that are already just like you know leading
the way in certain facets of the of the industry as a whole. Yo, you would need
the entire Cardano treasury to put any Cardano product to compete with with the industry leaders.
Okay, can we accept that? Like you're not, no matter how much fucking money you put into
a Cardano perp trade, blah blah blah, that you're gonna compete with the fucking Hyperliquid
who just got licensed for you know trade X Y Z to X M P five hundred. All these. Yo,
we have to accept those things. The only thing that Cardano can do is leaning lean on its strengths
and try to identify, be visionaries. Being an entrepreneur is not good enough anymore. Okay,
being an entrepreneur is hey. This is the gap that needs to be fit. That needs to that that has
a potential market. This and that. Now I'm gonna launch a product. AI is making that shit
exponentially much faster. The people in Cardano need to be visionaries.
Where would this industry be in ten years or five years? And build now for what will become
the vision of the future. Does that make sense? Because otherwise you're gonna be running around
like a dog chasing your own tail and trying to find product market fit where other entities
are just exponentially at light year speeds and backing and and global. Customer acquisition
and acceptance and all that type of shit. Does that make sense? You know what makes a lot of sense,
Esco. It's just so annoying, dude. Winners. You don't need that one point. Cardano is dead already.
Can we just? I don't know about that. But the issue that I have is
that you know people can't seem to just like I'm 37 fucking old. When something it's like.
I just look at it for what it is, not for what I want it to be. And there's times that I have to rip
the bandaid. There's times that I have to just be like, "Damn, man, that didn't fucking work out.
" Okay, cool. As a business owner, as a dad, as all these other things. Now, okay,
what's the next thing that I that I move or transition to or whatever it is.
That's being a mature adult. Some cost fallacy is fucking wrecking the ecosystem because because one
or two entities in the space have over leveraged a fucking dominant part of the community into their
into their promise. Now they just keep sinking more and more and more and more money
into the same shit. You know, like dude, the race for that lane is gone.
The other others capitalized on that. You're not going to fucking compete with companies
that have like. Oh my God, dude! It goes to show that a lot of people know business in theory,
but in practice, it's a whole lot different. You know what I mean? Being able to monetize
your business consistently, customer acquisition, retention—all you know—competing with others.
Like everybody here is just always asking for fucking money, asking for more fucking money.
It's like this parasitic existence. Ah, I think there can be more than one like Kerb stacks
and go compete with Hyperliquid. See how the fuck that will go goes for you. Well, go go go ahead.
I'm just saying, there's more than one. Like in real life, you're not the only one in the business
that you have. Aster is second, and look how that's going for them, and they hold both bags. Yeah,
but they made a lot of money. I mean, you can compete. Aster, Aster sort of flopped.
It just wasn't as good of a product. I think that, like, it's fine to compete.
The problem is if you do it on Cardano, you're you're not competing right now.
Like the idea for most most of these projects is just like, hey, this thing exists somewhere else.
And I'm going to be the number one. I'm going to be the only purpose. I'm going to be the one here,
right? Yeah. I'm competing. You know, my goal is to capture this Cardano market
and not to compete with with you know on on the global stage, like an overall product that
anybody equitability that everybody can use because it solves a problem. Rather, it's like no,
I want to I want to build this thing for Cardano, and if I don't have a thriving ecosystem
that is growing in users and volume and all sort of things, then I'm also going to complain
that I misassessed. The environment that I was building in, or that I took a theoretical promise
that it was going to be the oasis promised land of ever up and to the right,
and when that that didn't happen, now I've been tricked into building in an environment that
you know the industry didn't choose as like the breathing ground for attracting new users
and liquidity and all these other things. Like there's some things that you just can't blame,
and as an entrepreneur, a visionary, you have to accept. Yeah, I still think.
I think there's more shared blame than a lot of people like to communicate. Like,
I feel like there's too much blame on ecosystem builders right now, and not enough on like
founding entities. Who's blaming what? No, just just generally speaking. Everyone's like, "Oh,
we need more talented ecosystem builders. These ones are shit. Like,
then Cardano would be successful." But I mean, no, that's not that's not what anyone is saying.
Some people are saying that we're saying is currently right. It's the ecosystem builders
are competing with Cardano eco with the Cardano ecosystem, and if if that continues, right,
we will not. You know, have a significant share of the DeFi market, a sustainable share
of the DeFi market. Yeah, you have to grow. You, if you're, if you're building a protocol
and you're not growing the Cardano ecosystem, you're just trying to, like, compete with the.
That intrinsic belief system is also the very fucking root of this. Yo,
blockchain is to optimize already existing businesses and and and stuff that exists.
This whole perception that there is this like imaginary Cardano place is so ridiculous, dude.
And and if you have that mentality, then you're building for the three.
You're like your total addressable market is this finite little bubble of things,
rather than being like, hey, you know, years ago it was a completely different situation. Asco.
Well, that is not what is today. And as entrepreneurs, you have to make the decisions that
you have to make. Some projects pivot towards growth, and some projects stay the same.
And and and I do agree we need to stop subsidizing projects that are not growing the ecosystem,
that are either stagnant or shrinking the ecosystem. Because some projects are shrinking
the ecosystem, so. But you know, until the founding entities start making good decisions about
where to put their liquidity, then we're not gonna we're we're gonna be in the same spot
because they're doing the same thing that they've been doing for four years,
trying to prop up these legacy protocols that are not growing the Cardano ecosystem,
and then everyone gets mad and says, "Why aren't we growing the Cardano ecosystem?" Well,
can we agree, John, that as a business owner, you're gonna be biased to your own best interest?
It's not about that. It's not. I can be biased. About certain things, but I can also be
I can also be objective. I'm not I'm not deluded. Like that's one of the problems is
that everyone thinks that as a co-founder you're like completely selfish
and like self-absorbed about your own product. When in reality, like we can't achieve the level
of success that we want to achieve without ecosystem growth. So it's not even about us
at this point. Like, do you think we would be happy if we were min swap? Like, no.
I'm not striving to be min swap. I'm striving to be fifty min swaps or hundred min swaps. You know,
and I want that optionality. I want the opportunity. And if this ecosystem
continues to make decisions that bottleneck the growth by subsidizing these legacy incumbents from
four years ago that do not innovate, do not grow the ecosystem, and you keep it always goes back
to the same thing. And and I think that that is like such a problem, Esco. It's a problem.
The problem is that you're building for a tiny addressable market rather than the entire globe. Yes,
you don't attract external liquidity. They don't. They can't extract external liquidity,
and they keep putting the liquidity on these fucking dexes for four years ago, and it's got to stop.
It's stupid. It's brain dead, and they keep doing it. So go ahead, right? Yeah,
I just I think it's like, like, I I understand your frustration, John, because.
It's obvious that you're frustrated. Dude, nobody wants to provide a more Sunday swap or men swap
or wing riders from fucking. Well, I actually I think that what would be optimal personally,
and and would get us a lot better results with the same amount of money deployed would be to start
actively market making on an order book. Potentially, it would it would be an L two on Cardano,
but you know maybe on the L one. I I think that active market making can produce
a lot better results than just deploying liquidity into an AMM, like a pool system on
on the reward system of the AMM and whether there's outside. Well, I mean,
so so I I don't I don't know if I really agree with that because at the end of the day, like.
What you're basically saying is that you're going to you're going to token engineer your way out of
like an inferior architecture. Because at the end of the day, the the reason
that AMMs were developed, like the reason that AMM pools were developed, is
because Ethereum had such a difficult time with order book deployment. Right?
It was a really expensive. It's that it's that order books by as a financial vehicle, right,
require lots of on chain interaction. And so, the reason order books work in the real world is
that to change your order is free, right? You place an order, you change the order,
you have no cost until the order is fulfilled, right? And so you get market makers that just come in
and keep liquidity. They keep the bid-ask spread tight, and in fact, they get paid to do this,
right? It's not even that they pay. It's that as a market maker, you get paid to reduce
the bid-ask spread. You have a negative fee on your orders, right? And this is why order books are
so liquid. Right, but in you know, right now on Cardano, all the order like Axo was like, oh look,
we, you know, we're super big finance guys, and we're so smart, and we know order book is the best,
and and they just fundamentally don't understand the reason that order books work in the real world.
Like they they did, you have to pay to update your order, which is incredibly. No one will do this,
right? No market maker would ever ever deploy capital in a system where they have to pay to
market make. But there is a there is a way that you could do this on the L1, right?
I think you talked about it before. Using signatures, and maybe I'm just tripping. Yeah, yeah. No,
I've talked about this. They should do this, like order books on Cardano.
Axel might have had a chance if they just had the problem. The problem with order books,
the problem with order books is that they they were designed for. No, no, no. Go ahead, go ahead,
Mikkel. I want this discussion to order today. I'm speaking, but I'm being interrupted. Go ahead,
Mikkel. Go ahead. Yeah. The problem with order order books is that they were designed for
for centralized systems. Because they were designed for the New York Stock Exchange, right?
And even on the New York Stock Exchange, Phil, if you want, we can talk about math.
But even on on on the New York Stock Exchange, you have math because you have you have necessarily
as as like physics, you cannot you cannot go faster than light. So some people have access
to information before others, right? So the problem with order books is that they were designed for
centralized systems and they only work on centralized systems. Even if you
if you try to design an order book for a decentralized system. It will it will end up if you want
it to work. Otherwise, it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, yeah, you can have it decentralized.
But we want it to work. So if you want to, if you want an order, if you want an order book to work,
it will necessarily end up in a centralized, in a centralized,
where where where one maybe two people, if you're lucky, have all the liquidity and decide decide
and do do all the market making, and they will only do that, as Phil was saying, if it is cost
effective enough. So if you don't lose money, so the only way that you can have it is
either go on a centralized. Layer two, like Hydra, and then you have a great, great experience,
right? So maybe what DeltaFi is doing, it actually makes sense, right? Because it's centralized,
and and then you can have as low as a fee as you want, and you can even incentivize people to do
market making. In that scenario, it does make sense, but it is not decentralized,
and so that's why AMM decentralized order books that you can update for free, right?
You can have the whole message passing where updates are like, you know, you yeah, yeah.
Regard regardless of the design, at the end at the end, the order books only works if you have
market making, and market making only works if you have as a single entity big enough liquidity.
So it always ends up centralized, and always that the market makers aren't like for instance
the market makers of Coinbase are not Coinbase is not market making their own desks,
their own centralized exchange. That there there are tons of external parties,
like hundreds of market making firms that all compete on the on the Coinbase order book. To profit,
right? Because there's a finite amount of money that can be made. Trade like high-frequency pairs,
though. So it's not, it's not even if you even if you go even if you go with with message passing on
off-chain, right? Which, by the way, off-chain, how do you keep how do you keep it decent price?
That's another problem. But let's assume we have solved that problem. Even even
if you keep it with the message message passing, at the end you had still contention on the UTXO
that are closer to the spread. So, sure. No, but you have contention in in real order books too,
right? Whereas if if I place a in order and someone else places it, right at the end of the day,
only one of us is going to get to purchase. If there's a specific order on the
on the Coinbase order book, right, and I try to fill that order and someone else fills it,
they're going to fill it, right? That's how contention. That's how it works, right? That's not.
And then if you place a market order, you're just eating through the book on that side
until you've filled your order, right? That's what a market order is, and that's why yeah.
This same thing that happens on on on a AMM. The same thing when you place an order, which,
by the way, we don't have on Cardano because we have batches. But the difference,
the main difference, though, is that with an AMM, you're always using some sort
of formula to determine how the price should move as people are placing orders.
Whereas with an order book, it's like you can have an arbitrary amount of liquidity
at any given point based on market makers or speculative traders, right? And so,
I do think that as a financial vehicle for for or financial instrument,
order books are superior to AMMs. I'm really curious, though. I don't. I don't quite understand.
They're not. So I. I don't think they're superior. I think you need both. I think again,
that DeFi does not succeed in a vacuum. Right. You need multiple financial vehicles.
There's a whole like there are huge arbitrage opportunities between Uniswap and Hyperliquid.
Hyperliquid isn't like a vampire attack. If you look at Uniswap Tvl, right,
and you look at Hyperliquid Tvl, the Hyperliquid obtained an insane amount of liquidity,
an insane amount, and yet Uniswap's liquidity. Liquidity did not reduce at all. In fact, there was
economic growth in Uniswap. So it's not like there's a vampire attack of liquidity,
and people are just like, oh, like order book is superior, and I'm only using order book.
It's that the introduction of additional financial vehicles is where this is my whole issue
with Cardano DeFi. Is like every app is like only concerned about building their own app,
and they're like, we're going to make this app the best possible for end users.
They fail to understand that Uniswap is not a good app because it's the best app for end users.
It is a good app because it is focused on interoperability with every other app.
And so no one just goes on Uniswap and deploys. You know, you don't just add liquidity to Uniswap
and and say, okay, that's it. I'm going to come back in a year and make my money, right?
What you you add liquidity there, you get the LP tokens. You put it in Curve.
You put it in a million protocols, right? And at the end, I agree. I agree. I agree with all that.
I agree. I agree with all that. I'm not saying actually. I I would I would love to see
what is happening over on on Ethereum on the Ethereum DeFi. I would love to see it happen on
Cardano, where you have more more. Utilization of the various protocol between each other.
So I would love to see that. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that order book
tends to go towards centralization. And by the way, if you want centralization,
is order book are a great design. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you cannot have
a decentralized exchange that is an order book by design. It tends to go towards centralization.
Then, if it is beneficial to have one centralized exchange and one decentralized exchange,
then That's a that's a word order Discord, but don't don't don't don't call it decentralized chains
because it's possible to have a descent. It's totally possible to have a decentralized order book,
and and just because it's a decentralized order book, I don't think it's better than an AMM.
I just think I think it's a different financial vehicle. There are reasons that both exist in
Ethereum, right? There are reasons that both exist everywhere. People on Uniswap aren't like.
I'm not moving my capital to hyperliquid because it's it's centralized. They don't give a shit.
The money moves where they can make money. They care about the bottom line,
and so the end result is that these are useful, use inherently useful financial vehicles, right?
Like, yeah, sure, you can have a few million. That's like, okay, this is you know protocol
and liquidity or like some insider or whatever. But you don't have a multi-billion-dollar product
that works like that. Right at the end, when you're talking about multi-billion dollars,
it is a it is a rational market that is working based on the inherent properties of those protocols.
And so, money is in Uniswap because Uniswap is a useful financial vehicle.
Money is in Hyperliquid because Hyperliquid is a useful financial vehicle. Like at
the end of the day, there's nothing. Decentralization is not a factor, right?
These things can coexist, and and we need them to coexist on Cardano. And it needs to not be, hey,
this is the way. That's we don't need this protocol. We only need this.
Like we need to have all of them. That's the only way DeFi works. Is having you need.
All the financial vehicles, right? I agree with all the ecosystem. I agree with all.
It's just going to be up to one protocol. Even if you have the best protocol in the world,
the highest yield generating protocol in the world, say your protocol generates
double the treasury bond yield, so you're generating nine percent real APY that gets paid out
in U.S. Dollars for for liquidity depositors, right? This is the best protocol
you could ever imagine. This is even if we had this protocol, right? Cardano DeFi
would not would not compete because in Ethereum, each protocol generates two to two to four percent
APY, and you loop your funds. You put your funds in one; the liquidity is active in four protocols
collectively, right? Four percent times three is is greater than the best protocol
you could ever imagine, which is that nine percent, right? It would be twelve percent
from those three protocols versus the nine percent of this super, like godlike, like oracle,
like just the perfect DeFi protocol you could ever imagine. Yes, I agree.
I agree with all the points. Absolutely, all the points except one, that is,
decentralization is not a factor, because that is not true. I'm not saying
that decentralization should exist in in a vacuum. I'm not saying
that everything should be decentralized, but I'm also saying that I'm saying
that decentralization is a factor. Is a factor meaning that you need to have at least at least One
of the many products that is actually. I agree with you. I agree that decentralization is important.
What I was saying is that there's nothing inherent about order books that are
or AMMs that are centralized or decentralized. It's just you can have an order book
that's decentralized. You can have an AMM that's decentralized. You can have an AMM
that's centralized. My point is that at the end of the day, we need all of these,
and we need all of them. We need AMMs that are centralized. We need AMMs that are decentralized.
We need order books that are centralized and order books that are decentralized. You need
more financial vehicles. More. Well, ours is both an order book and AMM.
It's just we haven't really built out a lot of the order book functionality because there's not
enough volume for it to make sense. But if there's a matching order, it executes, you know,
as a limit order. But there's no point in adding all the order book functionality,
like in the user interface, if there's not enough volume. And so until surge or market makers
or whatever exist. Then we can't even leverage like our protocol the way it was intended.
Are you guys? Are you guys allowing for people to update their limit orders off chain by doing
message passing? And I, I still don't fully understand how that looks, to be honest.
Because because there's just not enough activity. We don't have yeah. There's just no.
But wouldn't don't don't you think that it could potentially create more activity if people were
able to update their orders for free? But that that that that's what no no wait a second
that that the end the end of December is is very is very uh misimportant point.
There is nothing free. Nothing is free, not even the off chain. Someone has to pay the costs. Sure,
sure. That's actually a good idea, by the way. Yeah, I've talked about this for a long time. This
that that basically every everyone who came out on Cardano early on that's like I know
how to do order books. We're going to do it the best ever. Just fundamentally does not understand
order books as a financial vehicle. They might be great developers. They might be great have a huge
like a great understanding of Cardano. Whatever they just fundamentally like. You cannot have DeFi
or or developers developing financial vehicles, right? Like. It it doesn't work.
You need to understand financial vehicles to be able to like it would just be the
like the the most the first thing that would ever come to someone's mind when when thinking
hey I'm gonna Axo right I have multiple millions of dollars I'm gonna invest to build a protocol
how are we gonna keep this liquid and make sure the bid ask spread is low right that would be
the absolute first thing you would ever ever consider before being like we're gonna have
this programmable language that can do all the orders and all this other stuff like
billions of dollars just spent into a void on features that no one using
financial vehicles would ever want right it's just like the the the most the most basic step
is missed and as an ecosystem we need to change this it can no longer be just like hey we're I'm
a dev and I'm just going to do DeFi stuff or Axo of oh I you know this is the best thing
ever order books are the best without like any concrete financial reasoning of
why it's good compared from the perspective of a financial vehicle this is not
like crypto hedge fund manager who went to the Berkeley School of like
technical finance absolute genius advising us at the beginning of the project. And he, you know,
had us design our tokenomics to work like GMX, then Ethereum-based protocol.
It was the only DEX on Ethereum that was the token was was outperforming everything else
during the bear market. Um, and advised us, you know, to to build it the you know the way that
we did to some extent. And so we did listen to a financial expert. And we did design the protocol
so that the token has upside and will outperform. Yeah, you did it for Tokenomics, and that's great.
But you got to do it for the the app the financial vehicle itself. Well, the Dex itself works great.
We have the order book built into the Dex, and if we want to. Evolve that part of the dex. We can,
but the dex isn't profitable for us, especially because they keep putting
the millions of dollars of liquidity on these other dexes. So I don't, I don't know what to do.
You gotta get, you gotta get the liquidity from Uniswap, my friend. Your your target is not
the Cardano Foundation or IOG. The target is Uniswap. Easier said than done.
How much USDCX liquidity have we attracted from other chains so far? Two million. Two million. Yeah,
and that's like IO's name on it, like with our name on it. I mean, no, it's we're not IO's. I mean,
it's a matter. It's a matter of making it accessible, right? It's Circle's name on it, Phil.
It's your name on it. Okay, but remove the name, right? It is physically impossible
for your application to get liquidity from. Yeah, we're gonna bring in.
We're gonna bring in liquidity from Bitcoin first off, and then from. Layer zero
on the RWA platform. For every Cardano application right now, I can say definitively
that their competition is other Cardano applications or the Cardano market because there is not
a single Cardano application. You won't be seeing that soon, though. That's great.
That's what I want to see. But there's not a single Cardano application that has support for an
for MetaMask, right? For Phantom, right? If you go to Uniswap, right, you have you have every.
It doesn't matter what chain you're from. You can use Uniswap, right? And it'll all settle on
Ethereum, right? It just doesn't matter. If you go to Ave, it's the same thing.
If you go to any successful DApp, right, that is competing as a DeFi product
and not within the domain of some small chain, right? If you go to like, you know,
Chain Fifty on Coin Market Cap, and you go to their Dex, you know, their Dex will only work with
with one wallet from that ecosystem, and there's no rails for any other ecosystem,
and there's no effort to attract liquidity from anywhere else, right? If you go to Athena,
there's like specific subsidies, like, hey, if you're coming from Solana
and you deposit funds into this, right, you get this additional three percent APY, right?
It's targeted. Like targeted go-to-market to to get liquidity from their competition,
and their competition is clearly any financial product, any Web3 financial product
in the same niche, right? We need the same thing. Our dexes need to compete with Uniswap.
It needs to be like, hey, connect your MetaMask, get in, deposit into these pools, right?
You get you know additional. We'll give you additional subsidies. The protocol
token APY will be higher. API or just became available, so now we can use that.
Whereas before it was like. Do we want to try and create liquidity for Solana
and Ethereum on our DEXs? Why would anybody come to our DEXs? You know, sorry, Phil. Did you?
Why people say that, like, oh, I'm I'm sidetracked, etc. Right? This is why a USDCX was so important
to me, and I had to make sure it's done right because Midgard could not succeed in
a Midgard's target. Right? Our competition is base arbitrum and optimism,
and my competition is not high. I don't give a shit. About I'm not trying to be number one at home,
number one at Cardano, right? I'm trying to to get a share of the L2 marketplace. My products,
my competitors are the best L2s in the space, right? That's how everyone else should be operating.
And in a market, if I launched without USDCX, without a direct way for funds to to flow from
those ecosystems to Cardano, there is no way I could compete with them. How could I say, hey,
move your funds from? We're excited about it. We're excited about it. John,
can you let people speak, bro? Like you don't miss on speaking over motherfuckers, like crazy, bro.
We're talking together, dude. It's not that. Holy shit. You're talking together.
You're talking every day, bro. Like, if if I have to say, hey, you know,
to to move your funds from optimism to Migard, you have to go install Lace Wallet.
You have to go take your Ethereum and your USDC and sell it on Coinbase, and then go buy ADA
and send it to your. Absolutely no liquid. No one would come, right? It would never ever work.
There would be no chance that this product would succeed in the market, right?
And this this is why we need to focus on interoperability. We need to focus on ecosystems
of products and not just products. Like products in relationship to each other.
Things don't succeed in a void. Interesting. You midguard could be the best L2 in the world. Uh huh.
We have a partnership with Solana's largest DAO. They have like 200,000 users. So
if we provide support for Phantom Wallet, I guess, in some of our apps,
we were going to get them to download Cardano wallets as part of the incentivized testnet,
just to get more Cardano wallets. Like, but if you're saying it's better to just have them use
the Phantom Wallet, we can also do that. Is it important to get people onboarded into
Cardano wallets or not? Because I thought it was. I guess they would have to have one, right, Phil?
Even if they use a phantom wallet. Oh, I guess he left. Well, it was a good point. Man,
I was gonna ask Phil about the message passing thing, right, for the wizard. Yeah. Well,
you're the king of Cardano, dude. Just hit up his DMs, dude. He has to respond to you now.
He made a post about you. Them. They can use Phantom directly. We have the signing standards
for every blockchain. You can use MetaMask directly on Cardano. You can use whatever you want on
Cardano, and you would never have to install Lace. And and there's not a single product
in the ecosystem doing this. It's it's not. I'm telling. As someone that understands this deeply,
it is the simplest tech possible. Like it is a single. Okay. They use Phantom, and they want to buy.
John, don't miss this motherfucker. Getting on my nerves, dude. Holy fuck.
Say they want to buy Iagon, Phil. I'm just kidding. If they want to buy Iagon, I'm not helping.
They'll have to get their own. Clark coin, they want to buy a CNT, right? With the Phantom wallet,
how do they do that? Like the Phantom wallet can't. You have US, say you have USDC on Phantom,
right? Yeah. You have USDC on Phantom, right? You your Oh no! They don't have a Cardano wallet.
You use the the signing standards that we have, right? That support every signature
of every blockchain, right? To take you, you get their address from the Phantom wallet.
You create a a smart account on Cardano, right? A smart contract that is their their address
represented as a contract, and all it does is check for their signature of their public key, right?
And they swap, and the funds go in there. Right, and and then say they they they can do whatever
they want. They can swap that around by just continuously signing with that key, right?
Using that smart account. So so so the missing part. So the missing part, Phil,
is like to explain as well that now, like the thing similar to the USDC bridge.
So you can tell from the Phantom wallet, you can tell it to say send it,
send this USDC to this smart account on Cardano using the bridge, right? And now
and now at some point it will receive the funds there, and they can use that to to do whatever.
How long How long will that take? The bridge is like right now. It's like five minutes.
Layer zero should be even faster. Right, the bridge to Cardano is like five. Okay,
now they have CNTs in their smart account. Can they? They can swap the CNTs.
They can do whatever they want with those. They can do anything just signing with Phantom.
Anytime they do something, they sign with Phantom or MetaMask. If they want to look at
their transactions on like Sea Explorer. Yeah, they go to the explorer.
They go to the smart account. You'll have on. You put in right in, like on your website, right?
You know, here's your address. Here's your address on Cardano, right? And they just look at that.
And the address is the same. It's one per each. Yeah, it's one per each wallet. Right,
you have one address per every. A MetaMask wallet will generate one Cardano address.
A Phantom wallet, one Cardano. I mean, we're kind of doing that with our Bitcoin staking thing,
actually. That's exactly what we're doing. So, but the difference is. They have to have
a Cardano wallet. Instead of seeing this for year, we've had the signature verification stuff
for years. Instead of protocols pursuing this, all I see is them competing with each other.
It's like this. This is not your competition, guys. I don't want to. We're gonna do this for wizard,
bro. Thank you. No, I'm saying we're building, and then all the other app we're building,
Phil has no wallet at all. It just uses Cardano. They don't even see a wallet.
It's just all smart accounts, social logins. You know, hopefully it's huge. You don't need a wallet.
Anybody can use it. Doesn't matter. So, but but we will take a look at that,
especially for the Bitcoin stuff, because then if we can, um, we're doing some stable stuff
with you know, and so we're going to show the Bitcoin stuff to the Solana DAO,
and if they could just use Phantom Wallet to collect their rewards, you know,
that might make it easier for them to adopt. So. We'll take a look at that.
I don't think we can have it ready in time for launch, but this is the entire design thesis of USDCX
and why I worked so hard for interoperability. Why I could have like every other ecosystem that
did USDCX just stopped at the Ethereum to their ecosystem bridge. If you go to Stacks,
if you go to Alio, if you go to any of them, it's just a bridge and that's it, right?
This is why I made it so you can bridge and swap, you can bridge and deposit,
can you can Have access to any CNT, right? You can bridge and swap and swap back,
so you never even have to touch Cardano, right? You can bridge directly from a centralized exchange.
You can and go. You can deposit to a centralized exchange, right? This is these are the features
that Cardano needs to compete with the rest of the world. Yep, yep. Hey, I'm one question for you.
What's the most efficient way to get? Bro, let us ask a question. Yo, this motherfucker. I'm a kick.
Is that dude? I'm getting overloaded with jokes. I don't give a fuck where you got a fucking.
Fuck you, dude. Jesus Christ. Ah. You kicked him really. I just like hit my max overload, dude.
Like people can't even finish speaking. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick about it,
but like my whole inbox will be the first thing. My inbox is full of people just being like, "Yo,
what the fuck is going?" Breen, breen, breen, breen, and I'm over here like, okay, he's gonna,
you know, like let this be a discourse amongst everybody else as well and stuff.
And it's like he just interrupts people on the last three quarters of whatever
they're saying to make sure that nobody else can fucking chime in. And that shit is annoying
as fuck. So, anyways. John, fuck you and your thumbs down. Stick it right up your fucking ass, dude.
To drive the point home, right when I say competition is not Cardano, USDCX.
I made it my number one goal that USDCX on Cardano would be best in class. Period. Right,
best in class. Period. And and this goal came to you. I implemented those features.
Had had all the support for direct centralized exchange features that the competitors did not have,
that Stacks, Alio, and Canton did not have. Keep in mind, Canton and Alio
and Stacks specifically have very active DeFi ecosystems compared to Cardano.
Very active DeFi ecosystems compared to Cardano. And if you look at
where the most successful bridges, where the most transactions and volume have happened,
it is the Cardano USDCX. Right. It is it is best in class, not just best on Cardano. Right.
And that's what that's what products need to need to do. The competition I was looking at, right,
was hey, let me take a look at how USDCX. What features does it have on Canton? Right,
I saw oh this is good. Any feature we liked, right, we brought in. Things that
we thought sucked, we improved on, right, because we looked at those apps as competition.
Bro, I'm so excited, bro.
I'm gonna hit you up, Phil. I'm gonna integrate the metamask thing. Go ahead, Ed. I appreciate that.
I mean, my question was just gonna be a general one. I only came out to ask about one thing
that was about we were discussing a while ago between order books and other stuff.
So I don't know if it's still relevant. I basically co-sign a lot of what Phil said. He
and I pretty much agree on all that. So not that it really matters. I'm just a person here,
but I agree, Phil. Especially with the spirit of what you're talking about.
My question was just going to be a technical one because obviously I'm not a developer.
I try my best to follow. Did you look at? Have any of you? This is really for everybody, but Phil,
you can maybe start. Have you looked at Fallen Icarus's kind of DeFi kernel idea?
I thought it was interesting. I like the idea a lot. I think he needs that the change that it needs
is to make it so order updates don't cost an L1 transaction. You just fundamentally, yeah.
I had a feeling in order book that it costs money for market makers to reduce the bid ask spread.
It doesn't work. Market makers get paid. They they will go elsewhere where they're going to get paid
to reduce the bid ask spread. Why would I? How would that work, Phil? Would you like?
Keep like signed redeemers. That then you can like. Yeah, exactly. You broadcast signed redeemers.
That's fucking go, bro. This is your. This is the price ratio I accept.
And you broadcast it with time ranges in it, right? So this is this broadcast is only valid
for this validity range. Oh my god, I'm gonna integrate that wizard, bro, Riley. Have you, Phil?
Have you reached out to him at all? He feels like he doesn't really like to toot his own horn
about it too much, and I I started to see him post a little bit more,
and I just kind of wanted to give it a little bit more attention. And you know, I mean,
he doesn't really want to promote himself or the thing, but I think you know he's also doing
some great work behind Bitcoin DeFi as well. And so I just thought it was worth highlighting to you,
and maybe be worth at least having a chat with him. I know you're super busy,
but he seems like he's doing some good shit, and obviously, it's good, good, good. Okay,
I wasn't sure. I was just curious how we would implement this on some level. You know.
That's all I really came up to ask. Yeah, bro, it's so cool. It's so cool.
I'm gonna try to implement it for sure. That'd be great. Yo, cousin, you get that link?
You should click on some shit. We should. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I will. I will schedule it, bro.
Yeah. Yo, John has a question. Well, first off, I so I pinched a nerve in my back. Okay, the pain.
Was out of this world, dude. I I had to raise my hand while I was driving because if it was at
my side, it would pull on my nerve, and it was like a nine out of ten on the pain scale.
So I'm on a steroid and two types of painkillers right now. So if I'm a little bit jittery
or like interrupting, I think it's just the medication. So sorry about that. If I was interrupting.
Holy shit! We'll move on. And it was me who let you up, by the way, because um I wanted to
always be fair to be able to speak. Here, but you were on a run there,
where nobody can get a word in, and I was like, just take care of your health first. Yeah, I mean,
I've been resting for like four days, and this is my first day of being able to sit in a chair.
So I'm like so excited, you know. I've just been like watching like Netflix
and like dying on the couch. So I'm just happy to be back. But my question was, and I asked this in
the USDCX Discord, if if I want to mint some USDCX with ADA, and I don't want to go through
an exchange because I don't. You know, I don't like going through exchanges when I'm converting.
You know, to stables. What what are my options? And do you think that there should be a pool
controlled by you know the treasury on the USDCX side, or sorry, on the Ethereum side,
so that people can buy. USDCX directly without having to go through a centralized exchange,
or is there some other way of doing it that I'm buy USDCX with ADA? You're saying, yeah,
because if I want to, I don't. I want to mint new USDCX to add to the liquidity.
I don't want to just buy it from like another DEX, you know? Yeah, the problem is this isn't
a synthetic asset, right? USDCX is a is an asset backed by real U.S. Dollars by Circle,
and so the only mechanisms through which you could use ADA would involve someone at
the end of the day would have to sell the ADA for U.S. Dollars and give it to Circle. Yeah,
I'm saying, can we use some of the treasury to buy some USDC on Ethereum,
and then put something in the bridge so that people with ADA can just buy USDC out of that pool
and convert it to USDCX on Cardano, so they don't have to go through a sex.
Because I think it's a bottleneck. Yeah, what you're saying is is having yeah basically have
a treasury have treasury money used. To have ADA USDCX liquidity, right,
so that you could purchase USDCX with ADA, and this is where I think that again there's
a fundamental misunderstanding around like everyone the the protocol owned liquidity thing is
an idea that that died like nine years ago, right? The whole idea
of let's you know we need liquidity, so let's take a hundred million dollars and get
a hundred million dollars of liquidity. It is it is way too expensive. The meta for like
the past six years has been incentives, right? You you don't need to pay
a hundred million dollars to get a hundred million dollars of liquidity. You need to pay
six million dollars to get a hundred million dollars worth of liquidity for a year, right?
And that's what we need to do. Instead of being like the stablecoin proposals being like, you know,
let's just take a hundred million and use it to buy stables, which involves just dumping all
of that ADA in the market to get stablecoins. Like over time, this is not great, right?
What what you need to do is say let's take six million dollars from the treasury.
And use that to subsidize APY and get mercenary LP, right? The the market is rational. At
the end of the day, LPs move where they're going to make the most money.
If you're paying six percent subsidized APY on top of the natural yield that these protocols
are generating, right? You're paying way more than an LP will make in USDC. Ethereum pairs,
right on on like Uniswap, right, and so that liquidity will move, right.
These are rational actors in the market. We're talking about building. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm just saying as as a convenience feature because it's like we want to hold some ADA USDCX. Yeah,
the solution is we get a proposal that says, give us six million dollars, and we will use
the six million dollars to subsidize APY for the USDC ADA pair, right on on Cardano,
and that will get us USDCX ADA liquidity because LPs will come to provide LP
because they're going to make a lot of money. Right, and it won't cost a hundred million dollars.
We'll get a hundred million in liquidity, and we'll only pay six million dollars. Yeah,
I completely agree with you that we should be using the funds to incentivize, you know,
external liquidity to come into Cardano. What I'm just saying is that as a protocol owner,
that it would be nice if we had some way. To quote unquote mint USDCX,
and I'm just using that as a shortcut word, without having to go through a SEC, because yeah,
that's that's how you mint it. Is you will have the six million dollar withdrawal.
We'll subsidize the APY of that pool. There'll be a ton of mercenary liquidity in that pool. Oh god!
It god! It god! So we never need to. And then you just swap in that pool because it's
extremely liquid, and you'll have no. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Okay. All right. The
and and the idea the the other idea of like oh well okay well in one case we pay six million dollars
and we lose that six million dollars. And in the other case, we we pay a hundred mil and we keep it,
but you don't keep it because you have to have management fees around the the management
of this liquidity and the positions, and you'll lose money to impermanent loss, right?
And and all of these things are costs and costs and costs. At the end of the day,
the six million is going to have less cost. You'll have at least six million in costs
from impermanent loss and from like. The the management entities and the various salaries
you'll have to pay, right? Over the course of three years, or over the course of even a year,
if if there's a bad year for Ada, right? An impairment loss, like one bad day,
an impairment loss for Ada could just kill, kill it. And so, yeah, at the end of the day,
there there's a cost either way, right? And in one one approach, it's the cost is bound at
six million. In the oh, it's way better too because it's it's a organic growth
and it's way more decentralized too. Right, and it's onboarding LP to Cardano
because all of a sudden we have a huge marketing push where we can say, hey, look,
on Uniswap you get this APY for USDC. Ethereum, right? On Cardano, you get you know four times that
for USDC ADA, and it's such an obvious win. Hey Phil, you had mentioned this a number of times
in the past, and I think you said you were. I mean, obviously you're very busy.
I said you think you said you were cooking up something. Is there any status update to that?
I'm pushing very hard to get Pentad and to get others to to to do a proposal.
I only have so much capacity, and no, of course, focus. I mean, I again,
it's it's something I need for Midgard. I need deep liquidity in stable pairs, and so.
I feel compelled to get involved in stuff like this, but there are so many things that I need for
Midgard that you know I have to limit myself. Right? It's like, yeah, there's an order
of priorities. Like right now, it's like I got to get wallets to fucking like it is so impossible,
and no one wants to do anything in this ecosystem. I feel like I'm at a point
where I have to do everything. Like, why do you think that is? I'm here, bro.
Wallet support for programmable tokens is important. Well, Phil, why do you think that is?
Why do you think you're a man without a country at the moment? Because everyone's busy building
their midnight. Yeah, there are a ton of people in the space that I respect and that are doing
good work, but it's just like it's in a silo. Everyone's like, I'm going to build my product
and I'm going to make my product the best, and I'm going to devote all my time
and energy towards my product. And they don't. They fund. It's a fundamental misunderstanding
that no matter how good your product is, it will not succeed in a silo.
That's not how the world works. Markets don't operate in a silo. Right,
it can't just be you have the best product ever, and then all the other everything around it sucks.
Right, no one will use that. They'll go to an ecosystem that has, you know, like you know,
good products where everything around them is good. Right, that's way better than an ecosystem
where one thing is a super excellent product in a silo, and everything around it is shit,
and all the interoperability is shit. And so I I hope that people like take a step back
and say Hey I've been I've been listening to Phil a lot lately guys you know I think
that like Phil just really sees something that not a lot see really you know from the way
he's thinking about stuff. I mean what Phil's describing is what intersect was supposed to be
right to kind of join us and align us all together towards shared goals so we can dedicate some time
to solving everybody's problems and that's clearly what it should be. And the idea
I always hear from teams is like, well, someone else should do this, right? It's like, you know,
this is how you know. There's like this story of this girl that gets stabbed in like the middle
of a hugely populated apartment in New York City, and like when people were asked
why they didn't call the police, it's like, oh, someone else should do it.
It's like everyone can't say someone else should do it. Right, people need to start picking up
the shovel and saying, "Hey, you know, I can't succeed without this. I want to work on my product,
but my product can't succeed without this." And so, yes, it'll benefit others, but you know, at
the end of the day, rising tide—we want to benefit others. We we want an ecosystem of flourishing,
successful products. You you're you will make way more money, right? If the pie grows by
two percent, than if you take ten percent. More of the current pie, right? This is just
how math works, right? If you have your current percentage and you increase the pie, you will make
more money at the end of the day, right? And I want to see protocols. Their main priority
should be increasing the the pie and not increasing their slice of the pie,
because the pie is not sustainable right now. It's not big enough. Hundred percent. Yeah,
I talked about how the ecosystem is interdependent. You know, so it's like we need lots
of good DApps and lots of good tokens. We don't just need a couple. Well,
we we have to come around some shared. What we have to do is come around some shared goals,
and it's like herding cats, right? And so that's kind of been the the flavor of a lot of my posts
lately when I reach out to everybody because it's clear to me that this is what we have to do,
right, Phil? We have to have kind of like some basic OKRs that we all agree upon,
and then KPIs that measure against them so that we can achieve those goals. Exactly,
and and it can't be like some of the entities should do it, someone else should do it, and and even
if they do do it, say an entity steps in and does it, right? It's not going to be what you want, no,
because it's not made by the people that are actually needing that that need that resource.
You need these things to be developed by the consumers, or to to be co-developed by the consumers
of these things, right? Because if if you're developing it in a void and you're like, okay,
we did it, now plug it into your app, the world it it doesn't work like that.
It's like you need the throughout the process, right? Your expectations will not be aligned with
something developed in a void, right? So you need to be involved in the building process
of the things that they're consuming. Who was on the product committee?
That's why I asked Alex that, and I thought it was an important question.
There's no builders on the product committee, so what can you expect? They're gonna. They're.
They don't have the information or the experience of the builders. They don't have our needs.
You know. They don't know. So that's why it's not gonna work. This is sort of my one
of my biggest gripes with programmable tokens. It's like every time I just hear CF talk about ah
the uh x units aren't important. You know. It's it's so it's so it doesn't matter. Look,
we can do twenty orders. No one really values x units. This is for this.
You can only have this mindset if you've never developed as a consumer a a consumer-facing product
on Cardano. If you've developed any consumer-facing product on Cardano,
you know this is an insane take. You know how much time and money you invest into optimization
and how important it is for protocol throughput. Right, you know that if you have a dex
that can process 13 orders in a block, it is going to eat shit compared to one that can process
50 orders in a block. Right, people are going to be waiting for—they're going to be waiting
five minutes for their swaps to go through at any level of non-trivial activity. Right,
and then CF's like, oh, we could just do a index units, no problem, doesn't matter,
we don't really care. It's like no, you—you could only have this opinion if you are not actually
a consumer of the thing that you're building. Yeah, and so it worries me when the budget committee
and the product committee and all these committees with Intersect, who are like creating the budget
and creating the grant system and creating this and that, don't have any idea what
it takes to build on Cardano. What we need as an ecosystem, they can have interviews.
They can interview certain projects. And I saw that the budget committee interviewed like a few
of the newer projects on Cardano. I don't think they really. Pick the right projects to interview.
To be honest with you, but ultimately they're not going to be able to make
good decisions about the ecosystem without involving, you know, builders in this in the process.
It would be so much better if they did. And yeah, we may not have, you know, top Ethereum founders
or so on and so forth, but I mean we have been advised by, you know. Folks from the Ethereum system
and ecosystems, something like that. I'm saying it's not as good as as as having some
of those people, and we should have some of those people. But like you know,
a lot of us who've been building on here for four years, like we have a wealth of knowledge,
and expertise, and and scars, and understanding of the some of the pitfalls, you know,
of building here, and and it's stupid not to listen to us. It really is. Well, John, I mean, you
and I have discussed like I think the need for You know, an org that involves all those people
to the just to the degree that they can involve themselves. Like Phil's pretty stretched,
and then some outside killers as well. Some people who know what they're doing, finance people,
like the kind of people that Phil's described, so they can be paired with folks who have
the technical expertise and nuance of Cardano. It really has to be its own structure,
and I think it has to come from us, really, because we're the only ones who're going to be
able to form it the way we wish to. Hence my my post from a while ago.
I just I think that's necessary. I I just it's so frustrating to see teams not writing SIPS,
not like. Just not working on integrations, not working on things that will benefit everybody,
and just living in a silo and working on their DApp, and then just being like, "Well, you know,
I'm so mad, it's not working." It's like they're like, "Oh, it doesn't matter what I do,
it won't work." And this is I see this from every team on Cardano, and it's it's not working
because you can't. The way you are approaching it is fundamentally guaranteed to fail.
It doesn't matter how great your application is. If if if it exists in an environment
where everything else sucks and you are not improving everything else, and the the interoperability
and the usability and and targeting other ecosystems with wallet support like MetaMask and Phantom
and and adding direct bridging from USDC to your application, all these things,
then your app will not succeed. Right. If you're not like supporting looping, like immediately,
you know, deposit liquidity, it gets deposited into liquid. You get a you get an LP token, right,
in a single transaction, like through different protocols. Then it will not succeed. You cannot.
You cannot. You cannot. Every whole world on your back. It's not possible.
No matter how great you make your app, it's not possible. I'm so that DM on composable.
You said you were going to share a one day a repo. Okay. Okay. I'll I'll bug you about it
and see if you get back to me. I know how busy you are, bro. You are doing like
that is going to cost you fifty dollars. I told him we I would pay him for like for for advisory.
Right, rising tides lift all boats is something I've lived on Cardano since the moment I got here.
With all the free auditing stuff, the reason I go through all the open source protocols
and submit issues and patch stuff, it's zero cost, is because not because oh I'm altruistic and fun,
because I I know that I cannot succeed in an ecosystem where everything else is mediocre. Right,
everything needs to be good for an ecosystem. You need an entire ecosystem of products
to that are competent for your product to have a successful chance in the market. Right,
if your product is the only good thing in the market, it's in no one will be in the market it's in.
And if your product doesn't interact with any of the other products in the market that it's in,
the market you're in will not succeed because your product will have to bear the burden of what
in other markets, in in the equivalent market on other chains, ten protocols bear collectively,
right? Ten protocols only have to do two percent APY each, right? That's extremely easy relative
to one protocol here having to do twenty percent APY. Is is an impossible task
that's not sustainable. I mean, a really simple example is just in running a dex. Like,
if nobody wants the tokens that are on your dex, like you're not going to have a lot of volume.
You know, it doesn't matter how how great the dex is or how great the order book is. I mean,
obviously market makers can help, but eventually you're only going to be able to afford
the market makers if you're stimulating organic. And all what I'm talking about is the looping,
right? If there's nothing to do with the LP tokens, no one's going to want LP tokens, right?
You need. The interoperability. There needs to be some other protocol somewhere that I can go put
my tokens in. I into a dex. I get LP tokens, and I can go do something with those LP tokens
somewhere else. Right. This is why. This is why DeFi works in Ethereum.
This is why there's so much capital in DeFi. Is is because the burden of each protocol is so low.
They only have to generate a very very small amount of real yield. And if you if if you're
able to have the capital active, the same capital active in multiple protocols, right?
If if each protocol is one percent yield, and you can loop it through six protocols,
you're beating treasury bill yield. You're beating a high yield savings account, right?
And of course, money will do that. And generating one percent yield is is so trivial.
So you can use the same LP tokens in multi multiple. Yeah, in Ethereum you can you can go deposit
into Uniswap, you get LP tokens, right? You can go put those into Curve, right?
You get the the resulting output of that, right? You can go put that into
into some lending platform, right? And lend those, and and you get APY from all of those protocols
compounding. So you get the output from Curve, like the yield tokens or whatever,
and then you use those in another protocol automatically. Yeah, got it, got it. That's sweet. Yeah,
I wish we, maybe we'll we'll try and work something out. I mean, we've been talking to.
Or someone tried to connect us with the Denogo, and I mean, Liquid approached us a long time ago.
Um, so yeah, maybe. Yes, go talk to Denogo. Go talk to Liquid. Say, add my LP tokens as a
as a lendable asset or a borrowable collateral asset. Well, well, the cSwap rewards that
everyone's earning are so good. I don't know if they're going to want anything else, but we'll see.
Oh shit! Well, I think we got some takeaways here, Phil. I did anyway. I I did for sure, bro.
And yeah, and I just can't. I can't. I just need people gotta pick up the shovel and say this is.
You're one dude. It's not. I'm picking it up, bro. Things for my. It's not my product. You know,
I'm not. It's not all about me and my product and developing in a silo. It's hey, yes,
I know this would be good for my product, but it would also benefit my competitors,
and someone else should do it because of that. No, instead of saying that, you should say, okay,
well, this is good for my product. It's also good for everyone else. I'm gonna pick up the shovel
and do it because we need the pie to be bigger, right? That's what will make my product succeed.
Right, this this simple stuff like having a phantom. This stuff has been available forever.
Every app on Cardano should already have support for Phantom and MetaMask. Right,
there should are USDCX. It should already have like USDC direct deposit from from Ethereum. Right,
every app should have this. Wait, Phil. One thing I was actually going to ask earlier about this,
um, and I stepped outside and was talking to. Not my roommate, but the guy that lives in
the apartment above me for a minute. So I don't know exactly all that was said over the past five
or ten minutes. But in terms of getting MetaMask or Phantom support implemented for a given DApp
or even for the ecosystem as a whole, do you see that happening with like account abstraction
and allowing for? Right now you can do it with account with the simplest account abstraction
possible. Right, right, right. We're gonna do it for Wizard Rally. You just say like literally,
you have a simple contract that just says signed by Ethereum public key done.
Do you do you think that it's worthwhile? And something that I've proposed quite a bit,
or been speaking about quite a bit. I don't know if maybe I got the idea from you.
A lot of the times, I fucking just jump on the the fill idea bandwagon because you have great ideas,
but. Getting them to actually treat Cardano as sort of a first-class or tier one blockchain.
This is for this is for so when it's like okay, pick up the shovel. There are two different levels
of this. It's like I can pick up the shovel and and I can get something quick
and dirty done that supports Phantom and MetaMask for for my app and all the other apps on Cardano,
and everyone will benefit. But there's also as an ecosystem, right? Someone needs to come in
and say, okay, well. Let's get Phantom already supports Ethereum and it supports Solana
and other networks. Let's get Phantom to support Cardano as well, right?
And then we don't need to deal with this weird UX of the smart accounts and the signing messages.
It's just that's like a pentad thing, though, right? Right, and it doesn't. But my point is,
it doesn't need. Everyone says it should be. Everyone wants someone else to do things,
and it's like, at the end of the day, you're like, yeah, you have a product on Cardano. You're like,
yeah, I would like if Phantom supported Cardano. It would benefit my product.
But I'm not going to do it because someone else should do it because it will benefit everyone else.
If we have this mindset continuously, we will fail as an ecosystem. Yo, John. If you want,
if you want Phantom and MetaMask, bro, hit me up, bro. You know, Phantom having Phantom have
Cardano support will benefit my app. So I'm going to go submit a Treasury proposal.
I'm going to go ask Phantom how much money it will cost, right? And I'm going to go ask the Treasury
for that much money and pay them, and they will do it. Justin, Clark, do you have
Phantom integrated? Well, we will, we will now, bro. Well, I think Clark didn't.
Wasn't that something that was already part of the design discussion? Because I remember
we had discussed that for exacta when that was still sort of a yeah a concept.
But but this this feels idea is just so elegant and simple. Like like he's right. Like
why is no one fucking doing this right now? And and with the fucking USDCX bridge, like holy shit.
A lot of the time, it's like, oh, well, let's do a whole smart account thing and do all this. Nope,
just signature check done. It's like, yep. People are like, it. It is way simpler than. It's not.
We don't need to do everything complicated. What we you can do this in a hackathon, bro. Yeah,
you could do it in Cardano ecosystem. Could have had this. Every app could have had a MetaMask
and Phantom support in a in a weekend. What for the U USDC? Yeah, bro. Yeah, yeah. Right. Um, Clark,
are you is wizard? Are you part of the wizard team or yes, yes, yes. Oh, cool! I didn't know that.
Yeah, we were talking about Bamba about integrating. Is Wizard an order book? Uh, it's a yes.
It's a global liquidity order book where uh. Go add the fucking. We will, bro.
We'll we'll add the the fucking the um what do you call this the the the off chain order updates
and then this fucking MetaMask um Phantom thing. Uh, it's like it's gonna be like an order book,
but but fucking. And Clark, do you fully understand how the message passing uh update your order
works? Yes. Yes. Was that something that? Yeah, it's like Icarus's thing, but better.
You you post a message with the rate, the exchange rate you're willing to accept, and a time
and a validity range for that message. Okay. And the tx, yeah, tx outref.
And and then you just collect this in your like backend, and then anyone that interacts,
you can just provide this information. Basically, they can. Right. You can cancel it by spending
the the utxo back to itself, right? Because that gets rid of the tx outref.
You can update it by keeping the validity interval short, right? So you publish one
every three minutes, and this allows you to update the price once for free every three minutes.
And if you know, yeah, this is essentially like you're not going to have a situation on Cardano
where you need to update every five seconds. That's just not how the Cardano
the liquidity difference on Cardano won't move within five seconds.
It'll only move every twenty seconds because that's how long a block takes.
And so this is totally fine. Oh, you're talking about what automatically updating limit?
I'm talking about updating your the the the. USDC. I'll take 50 ADA, right?
On an order Cardano right now. If you want it, if the price of ADA changes, right,
and all of a sudden ADA shits out,
and you want to now charge, you know, six sixty ADA, then you got to, you know.
Am I rugged? Nah, Phil's cutting. Phil's having issues. I was getting a connection lost message
on my phone, so I don't know if the space is. No, it was just Phil Clark.
Why can't we just use Pith for that? What What do you mean for the? For the price change. Oh yeah,
we we on on um on Wizard we do have actually an article similar to butane articles. Well,
what you could do is you could have pith used to have like a range around the pith price
or something, but that's different than what we're talking about, right? Yeah,
defined price protocols are are a thing and they're useful, but it's
a different financial instrument, and you do want them. Yeah, so Wizard will have like two modes.
It will have like a limit order mode and an auto limit, which will base it on the article price.
But but what Phil is mentioning here will apply to the limit order mode,
where people could broadcast their new price without updating the UTXO. Holy shit, bro!
And this allows you do need like some right. This allows you to have good MMs that will operate on
the chain because then you you can reduce the bid ask spread for for free
and you make money instead of lose money. Yep. And the thing about Wizard, by the way,
is that it will be compatible. It's basically an order proxy for Sunday and Minswap. So Sunday
and Minswap can take orders from this, and and and and Wizard will get filled. If that makes sense.
Why why why not see? Well, that well we are we are I think we're talking to you guys, right?
The integrated guys. What the fuck, Sunday and Minswap? I think I think the idea with Wizard is
that they want to be is like you could see how to do it. I think the idea with Wizard,
at least from what I've heard from Bamba and Clark, is that they want to be really agnostic.
They want to support everybody. They want to be as interoperable with all of these other dexes
as possible. So it's not like Clark is trying to, you know. Yes. No, we have a non we have
a non disclosure agreement where he's not allowed to say that C swaps his favorite dex. That's wild.
That's true. That's true. Yeah. Ed has a question. Yeah, as the non developer here, Phil. Yeah,
one thing I hear about with any effort to bring liquidity and activity here, whether it's Bitcoin,
do you fire what you're talking about? Hold on, Richie had his hand up, and hey, you're Richie,
go ahead, bro. I have just a very quick comment for John. You're saying lots of good things.
I just wanted to let you know your butchers are down for like ten hours. People can swap on CISO.
Oh my gosh! Okay, thanks. Oh no. Anyway, let's go ahead and stuff. Mikael is up here. Oh. I just,
I was just expecting the most snooty shit from Eka, just being like, "You see,
this is what you talk about." Well, I thought I thought about it, but he didn't say this isn't.
To be fair, this is not an inherent problem with bachers. You can have open bachers,
you can have fault-proof bachers, you can have bachers that anyone can be a bacher,
and there's no centralized entity that can go down. There are other problems with that, but yeah.
It's just the design choices of Cardano protocols. Same thing with the Axo order book.
It's just just because Axo fit. Fucking everyone! Everyone who comes out always and is like,
so the thing is, I've done the best decks. I've done the best app possible. It's always the worst.
Anytime I hear that marketing, it's whatever is released is always the worst. Okay,
but Cswap is the best one, right, John? Go ahead. Go ahead. Yo, Jones got to go fix some shit.
Go ahead, John. Give everybody a break. Go fix this shit. We never, we never, we this never happens,
dude. So I mean, yeah. So go ahead. Sorry, sorry. All right. So as I asked before to Phil was,
you know, a lot of the critiques whenever I talk to anybody about bringing liquidity
and activity here, right, for your suggestions, whether it's Bitcoin, DeFi, or anything else, right,
is that we're just too slow at this point, right, and we kind of need Lagos
and Paris like yesterday. So let's say we generate that activity you're talking about.
Are they going to have a terrible experience here? We are not too slow.
They're going to have a terrible experience because our app ecosystem sucks and our UX sucks.
Got it. Ethereum is the slowest shitter chain ever, and people do not mind because the UX is
extremely polished. Got it. Right. You can do. You don't need to spam the chain with transactions.
Right. As I said before, this looping stuff means I submit one transaction. In behind the scenes,
I get like it goes through like ten protocols, and I get LP token for like. So alchemic,
some like self-repaying loan, or at the end of the day, right? And it's just you're not spamming
the chain, being like, oh, I'm I gotta I gotta get this order, I gotta get this order.
That's like for hyper liquid and high frequency trading. You don't need
high frequency trading for an extremely successful DeFi. In fact,
the most successful DeFi ecosystem, Ethereum, is not high frequency trading. It's low,
very low frequency trading. That's what most people in finance do. Most people buy the S and P
and wait two years and sell it. Right, this is our target demographic,
and we can succeed at this if if our US doesn't good idea for a financial product that
I think would make sense, and and maybe I'd need to run it by someone,
but like I kind of want to just say it. I know Esco would get mad though, because as your attorney
and legal advisor, um, no, we'll leave that for the cabal conversations offline, because otherwise,
yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll shoot it into the group chat. Otherwise, tomorrow you'll have like
a Twitter account already claiming it, asking for two point seven million ADA from the treasury,
and then we're just cooked. Well, still, that's why I share all my ideas here.
Instead of going to build, I'm not going to go build the order book. I'm not going to go build
the wallet thing. I just like, please, I beg you, other people, please pick up the shovel
and do something. Here's, go do it, please. Got it, bro. You got it. I I thought one
of the key takeaways from Rusty stuff, the Fall Nicheer stuff, the DeFi kernel stuff,
was when he said, when I read through it, was that you know we could take advantage of the ecosystem
here by focusing on high quality transactions rather than high frequency ones.
Just just bouncing off what you said there, that what we have is more than adequate.
What we have is not what we have is awful because there there is no capacity, not the UX
and what you talked about. Yeah, right. We need the interoperable. We need
the a flourishing ecosystem of products that interact with each other and don't exist in a void.
And we need a flourishing ecosystem of integrations and direct support for things
like Ethereum deposits, things like Solana deposit, all of these things designed to.
To make this a competitor in the DeFi ecosystem, and not just make apps competitors on Cardano,
because we will die spending all of our money, investing all of our money into competing with
each other, and we will end up with shitty products. Totally there with you.
I was really bouncing off
what you said earlier that you know, in relation to Ethereum being the slowest dog shit. So
the the rails exist. All the infra is all there. We just need people to pick up the shovel
and build out the app layer. We don't. You don't need layeros. You don't need all this fancy stuff.
Everything is here. Everything we need to succeed is here. And maybe a little better coordination,
so we're not having to hash this out in Twitter Spaces, yeah? Yeah, I mean, it needs to be.
It needs to be someone put in a place of power that that know that that understands DeFi.
That says this is how a successful ecosystem works. Right? I have a successful DeFi protocol.
I've exited, and then to put them as head of DeFi on Cardano, and they get they coordinate
all this shit and get it done. And the problem with wisdom of the crowds is everyone thinks
that they're they're the best and the smartest at whatever they're doing, and they're not.
It's just these we're not the wisdom of the crowd is not equipped to make decisions about what
they want. Everyone's like, oh, Cardano will be better if we're faster. No,
it will still it will be just more empty block, more capacity for more empty blocks, right?
You need to have a flourishing product ecosystem. Things do not succeed in a void.
It just doesn't work. Layeros will not solve your problems. Other entities will not solve
your problems. You will solve your problems by picking up the shovel and getting it done.
Hundred percent. We we just need more Phils, bro. I want to be like Phil, bro, when I grow up.
I I want someone from Ethereum Foundation, just the old head of DeFi. They just fired.
I want him hired, and I want him running DeFi, like orchestrating the DeFi.
Collaborative DeFi on Cardano, and getting all the protocols to interact with each other correctly,
so that we can have a non-shit ecosystem of products, and stop investing in
mindlessly competing with each other, and having as a result the shittiest, most useless,
isolated DeFi ecosystem ever. That's kind of the spirit of my post was to get a couple
of those killers in there, right, to lead that effort. You know, I would gladly pay them top salary
out of the treasury, pay them what they're worth, incentivize them,
and then you know coordinate with everyone else. Don't don't you think that that the fact
that essentially every application that we have so far. As the entire state on a single L2,
and then you have to interact with that L2, with their infrastructure.
And don't don't don't you think that this design pattern is the main because is the main obstacle.
So imagine you want to do protocol, you want to do some interoperability, right? Say I have USDC,
USDM, right, and I want to I want to put it into stablecoin LP. I want to take those LP tokens.
I want to put them into liquid, right? And I and I want to get QLP tokens, so I'm lending those out,
and and I'm earning yield on one. I'm earning yield on the APY from the trading fees on the decks.
By the way, in just in just this first part, you you have to interact with
at least two centralized infrastructure. You have to have permission
of these two do centralized infrastructure. If you don't have permission,
you can you cannot compose. So in this case, you you don't. I just submit the order, right?
I submit the ADLP order, and I set the destination of my order, right? On OneDEX,
I say I'm placing an order to deposit stable swap LP USDC USDM, and I want my order
to be fulfilled to the Liquid order request script with this datum, right?
And so I do one transaction. My order gets filled. It outputs it to the request script.
Liquid processes the second transaction, and at the end of the day, in my wallet, I get. You know,
Q stablecoin LP tokens that are earning yield across two products. You know, you know, you know.
Of these, there is a there is a third party that you need to trust. That to to want the trust
on various sectors. You you need to you need to trust that is is looking. Kelly, I know,
I know all the I know all the trust assumptions of these things. I'm the first guy to say, yeah,
we got to improve that. But at the end of the day, right, we need interoperability, right?
And so I can't just have it. And I'm saying what what I am saying is that in order
to get interoperability between protocols, and which is something that I want, we need to push for.
I don't have I don't have to be the single asshole to to have to have a permission on a protocol.
We need to push. All the protocols to get more permissionless. But say in your protocol, right?
I do a, I add LP and I get an LP token, right? Where, where do I send that LP token? Can I do it?
Because at the end of the day, as an end user, I don't want to be. If I'm looping through
ten protocols, I don't want to have to manually go to ten websites. And and submit ten transactions.
I want to I want to have my strategy. I want to submit one transaction, and at the end of the day,
I want to get the final token after it. The same exact the same exact the same exact way that
you described. So I can deposit liquidity and your protocol, and I can have the LP token sent to
the request script of Liquid, right? You would you would you would do this without third parties,
using using smart accounts, and without a transaction. By the way, but who's processing
my smart account? What? Who's processing my smart account? The you. I'm.
I'm not committing ten transactions. You you you you're you're you're clicking one button,
but your smart account is is is a private key on a hot key on your on your computer,
and that that hot key can only do. And the computers like running a service that's like querying
the the request scripts of those and processing them individually. Yeah, but by the way,
that is what we are doing with Ethereum because you have a local node, Mikaela.
I'm not a crazy person. My computer will explode. It will. I'll run out of block frost requests.
It will not explode. I have to run a Cardano node to do this. Well, that's why that's
why they're like proxying Ororboros messages to the browser, right, McKelly?
That's what you're doing, McKelly. In your dex, make sure when when when you create something,
like you fulfill an order, you can you can set the destination and the datum. Yep. Right. So
that when I when I in my in my in my dex in my dex in my dex you can do whatever the fuck you want,
right? Because I don't I don't check what you do. I only check what what the pool cares about.
So you you can you can literally interact in the same transaction with ten ten other protocols
in the same transaction, and the dex doesn't care. That is the problem.
No other dex is doing that because because because you you need you need to pass through
their permission permission in process. It doesn't make sense. Actually, liquid, to be fair,
is not perm is not permission. It has you can do direct interaction with the pool. Yeah,
I'm mostly I'm mostly talking about. But they don't support destinations, right, Phil?
Liquid does does does support destinations or not? I don't. I mean, I don't think so. No. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Does it support? I had tried to get them to be more interoperable
when they first launched, and and I don't know about their second version because I think
they're still in their first version, right? So the Ethereum is always your public key,
is that correct? That's my understanding. Yeah, you can't use smart contracts,
or at least not with the data. I guess you could probably use. Um, if if I understand correctly,
you could probably use now that we have Plutus v3. No data. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just use the. You could technically do destinations by doing that, but it gets complicated, right?
Yeah, my my point my point is my point is uh that because of of the majority of of like even
if you have only liquid that is is is perfect in the interoperability. I don't know liquid. Uh,
I I didn't see their their smart contract. I don't know anything about liquid. Even
if we have only liquid. You you you still cannot do anything because the rest of the application
required to go through that centralized permissions. Splash splash you can do it yourself too.
Splash doesn't scare doesn't scare. Yes, you can, but you're like fighting with a mempool with a
with a. Yeah, you're fighting with this this splash. You have you have a local chain.
What's funny is is you can actually steal the chain from splash because the the mempool their thing
is using mempool scanning. Whereas what you can do is local. Local UTXO caching, right?
Where you just produce the transaction, you track the output, and you immediately know. Yep. Output.
You can just chain forever, basically, and you can just steal the steal the thread from them.
It doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't scale. It is very easy to DDOS. And and like on on top of that,
even if someone else takes the lead of the chain of transaction, you still have a single actor
that has. So it it is not designed. It is not designed to uh to have this kind of composability.
And no no no other, especially dexes. Uh, I'm talking mainly about dexes. Dexes, quote unquote,
because they are not decentralized. U USTCX does. Yes, T C X. Wizard has destinations, by the way.
U USTCX is not a dex. No, it's not a dex, but it is composable. Yeah, everything is is centralized
and. Wait, so I can like do a trade and automatically sell it to you to fucking Ethereum, Phil?
Like send it to you. Bea, let's fucking go. USDCX web app, you can bridge
and swap in a single transaction. You can USDC on Ethereum, you can swap it to any native asset
on Cardano. You can you can bridge from a centralized exchange. You can deposit to spend.
Everything is atomic and permissionless, and and there's no concurrency contention.
You cannot swap on Cardano, though. You can do it on Ethereum. No, you can swap on on Cardano,
but it doesn't use USDCX as the dex. It just like routes it to a different.
It just uses Interop to route it to a different dex. And at the end of the day, on Cardano,
if you bridge USDC from Ethereum and you want to swap into Fu token, you do a single transaction
on Ethereum, and the destination is the request script of some Cardano dex. But you're not swapping.
You are placing an order, which is so. In the Ethereum side, you can like specify the data
that arrives on Cardano. Yeah, yeah. On the Ethereum side, damn bro, holy shit, bro.
You guys did magic, bro. Congrats. But that that that that is not correct. You are not doing a swap.
You are doing you are doing you are placing an order,
and then decentralized permission infrastructure is executing that order if you like.
Then from the from the perspective, what am I going to do, Michelle? Build the decks?
Am I going to go build the decks? That that's what I had to work with. That is the point.
So what I learned from Hyperliquid, though, Michelle, right? Kelly and Riley, right?
Is that what they have focused on? Maybe it's centralized, but they focus on user experience.
And now that they're successful, if they wanted to, they can work on decentralization now.
That's what I learned. And I think we should like start doing that in Cardano, you know,
like start with being successful first and then decentralized. Where are where are their incentives
to do it? I I'm not seeing I I see I see them talking about doing. I'm not seeing them doing.
So yeah, the the point the point that I was making is, I I don't want to be the single asshole
that that is that is allowing permissionless compossibility. I would like to see more, honestly.
Yeah, yeah, I like it though. I I like decentralization, you know. Yeah. See,
the problem is all these decentralization is often not not difficult, but there are trade offs,
right? And so Hyperliquid doesn't want to make they can decentralize relatively easily,
but that would mean instead of investing money and making their product better
and improving it as a financial vehicle, they'd have to invest money in fault proofs
or zk settlement of their you know sequence like decentralizing the operator. What are we?
What are we building? What are we? What are we building? Why? Why? Why? Like to me, to me,
Hyperliquid is is is competing with Binance. It's not competing. It's not competing with Uniswap.
It's it's a different. I agree. 100. That's why I said we need these products of every range.
We need decentralized. We need centralized. We need you know centralized order book.
Decentralized order book. If you go centralized, then you are taking the same old trust
of whole finance. Which, by the way, the decentralization is a spectrum, right? Like finance can.
No, no, no! Don't don't come up with this shit with me. No, no, but the but the attractiveness,
the attraction as an end user, right? If I care about, I have full custody of my money.
That's a huge difference than me putting my money on finance versus putting my money on a Cardano.
I was gonna say the attraction for Hyperliquid is that you can still use
your your decentralized wallets to interact with it and not sign up to KYC and store your thing.
Right. Hyperliquid is a bad example of that because Hyperliquid is genuinely non-custodial.
If I put my money in Hyperliquid, they could just take all my money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
so kind of. But the thing is. So Hyperliquid, as they continue to have more and more validators,
like yeah, they could push an update to the the node itself, and because it's closed source
and nobody's reverse engineering it to the extent that they'd be paying attention for this,
like they could just take your money for sure. But I I think that it's more realistic to expect
them to blacklist your wallet from their UI, which they have done. Yeah, yeah,
but but Hyperliquid Labs could literally unilaterally take. I mean, they won't do it
because I trust them, but they could just take all the money. But that I don't think
people don't care about it. Like that's not important. My point is that decentralization is
a real spectrum, and that there's there's custodial and non-custodial is is a huge component
of that spectrum. And there's there's stuff beyond that which has value, right?
And all of everywhere on this spectrum has value, right? It's not just like perfectly decentralized
or totally centralized. I I understand the logic behind the the catchphrase.
So decentralization is is a spectrum, but I don't think we can call. There is a line somewhere
on that spectrum where you can call yourself decentralized or not decentralized.
And Hyperliquid is definitely not decentralized, even though even. I agree.
But I would say Cardano apps are have some extent of decentralization
because they are not custodial, right? The app cannot take my money. I have possession of my money
the whole time. Look! Look! You you can you can say that they are non-custodial.
You cannot say they are decentralized because at the end you you need centralized permission.
But this is this is like an opinion of decentral. It's like you at the end of the day, right?
With with splash, I could I could theoretically do everything myself if I want,
and they could never. It's just like there is a spectrum. I I agree that there's value in going to
the extreme ends of that spectrum, and there's value in being in the middle of the spectrum.
We need apps in an eco. We need an ecosystem with everything. We need.
And I I think you're both right because what what Michaela is saying, what Michaela said over
and over again is that he believes that there's this sort of Point on that spectrum
where you become quote unquote decentralized, and he doesn't believe that having a system
that is non-custodial qualifies it to pass that line, which I think is fair, right? His opinion,
but no, and I, I, sure, I'm just saying that like I, I think that at a certain point
we're talking past each other instead of to each other because I feel like I've,
I've heard the same point back and forth a couple times from each of you,
and it feels like you can call it descent. You can say that like you can draw the line and say,
okay, this is what real decentralized looks like, but. There is the spectrum, right?
And there's stuff that's less decentralized, but it's also not centralized, right? And so we, at
the end of the day, it's like the marketing can't just be like this is decentralized. It needs to be
like you know these are the properties that sufficiently decentralized. No,
this is this is really important. Being non custodial, you can be non custodial
and still be still be centralized. And you can be non custodial and and decentralized, right?
Like Splash. At the end of the day, right when it comes down to the core tech,
I could do everything myself. I could. Right? Will I do that? No, but it's possible. And so,
where does this fall on the spectrum? It's not. I wouldn't call it as decentralized as gravity.
I would say. I would say. I would say. I would. I would say. Splash is more
on this decentralized side. See now we're talking about. You're saying more decentralized
than you're negating your whole. What I'm saying, McKele, is is decentralized is not a useful word
because it doesn't encompass any information. What you the words you want to say are here are
the core value propositions of my decks, right? The thing that you explained earlier, right?
That I can do everything atomically, and that it doesn't matter because it only tracks
the pool state. That is a is an actual tangible value proposition that isn't just my dex
is decentralized. It's here is the core value proposition that my dex can do that the others can't.
Right, my dex is yeah, that sounds better from a marketing perspective. I don't think so.
My problem is no, but you you can't explain it in a technical way like I did.
You have to explain it in a use case example way. As in my dex is non custodial,
and here's something you can do on my dex, like i.e. An example of interop in a single transaction.
Like you can deposit. And then deposit into liquid and do this all in one transaction,
and you can't do it on other dexes, right? That's a tangible proposition that says. My problem,
my problem, my problem with with the word decentralized is that it is it is being abused to
the point that it has lost us all meaning. I agree. No, it has entirely lost all meaning,
and that's why I think it's useless as a term. It's just it's totally useless
because Hyperliquid is going to argue they're decentralized. Everyone in between is going to argue
they're just. Everyone wherever they are is going to say we're decentralized. And so, like,
how many, how many, how many batters, how many batters would we have to run before we could be?
It doesn't matter if you can't run more batters. It needs to be anyone could be.
That's the you have. You have to have some permissionless way to have. No, no, yeah. Not just prime.
If anybody could run a batcher, but we still had batters, would we be decentralized? No. No, no,
because you trust the third party. No, you would be more decentralized.
What do you have to understand? You would be more decentralized if if batching was open
and you could batch your own stuff for sure, right? Because at the end of the day,
I could theoretically do everything myself. It would be more, but it would not. Right,
and I agree with what Clark said, where it's like you should start out with like fairly centralized
and become more decentralized over time. I don't think that. I don't think you can prescribe.
I don't think that's an. I think you need to immediately have in mind. This is what I want.
I want to be. Do I? Where Where in the market? No, I just said though.
It's like a lesson to be learned in Hyperliquid that now that like. They're super successful now.
They can pursue. They they they can't. Exactly. Clark, to be honest, they can't because they have
a ton of legacy design. They're not geared towards that market. The market they're going to satisfy
will never be word decentralized platform. Yeah. And so yes, like they could,
but they'd like have to scuff. They'd have to lose. They'd have to make
huge tradeoffs on their product and lose a ton of value. But but I mean they have the option now
by being successful, right? Like whereas you're like uh, you start off decentralized
and then you're now you're you're begging for like funding. All I know is that I don't see
them begging for money from the treasury, bro. No, but last time I checked,
you can do a decentralized product that's also good as a financial vehicle.
Uniswap at launch was decentral, was fully was as decentralized as possible, and was a good,
successful financial vehicle that was self-sustaining and making tons of money
and didn't need to suck out grants. You just need to know your niche and succeed at it, right?
You can pick. I want to be, you know, if you know what you want to do,
and you say I want to be the most decentralized, and these are my value propositions, right?
And you make a really good product in that niche. And you you have the core value propositions
like laid out very cleanly to end users of you know why this is good, then you will succeed in
the market. You could do the same thing with centralized. You could say I'm going to be the fastest,
cheapest perp thing, and I'm going to fucking do it all centralized, and I don't care.
And you can succeed in the market. And so, at the end of the day, it's about.
That would be great if it was marketed that way. That would be great if it was marketed that way.
The problem is that these people. But they're gonna. You have to know that when you're taking
the fully decentralized route, you have to understand that the market is playing against you
because everyone is gonna claim, everyone's gonna lie and claim they're fully decentralized,
and you just have to. There's nothing you can do about that, right? Hyperliquid's gon
na pretend to be decentralized all day, and like vice versa. When you're taking
the centralized route, you know that that's the value proposition that you have.
That you'll be able to lie and say you're decentralized and succeed in the market through that.
And so, at at the end of the day, these are just market dynamics you have to understand.
And Uniswap, right? The reason Uniswap isn't just like fuck it, I'm going fully decentralized, is
because yes, retail doesn't understand it, right? But but institutional, huge LP holders do, right?
If if if I have fifty million, right? I'm an early crypto investor and I have fifty million in LP.
I'm not going to put that shit on on like foo poop decks that's super fast and cheap, right?
Because if it's like, I I want it on the most secure. Resilient platform possible, right?
And so you still have a value proposition, even though you have to deal with the bullshit marketing.
I agree. Interesting, interesting conversation. I want to hear what Richie has to say since he has
his hand up. Most of people care about KYC, so this distinction between decentralization,
centralization, for lots of people comes whether I need to do KYC or not.
So KYC is a big showstopper. Now Hyperliquid doesn't require KYC,
but technically they should probably because they are very centralized, right, by design.
Now they still claim that decentralized; they're posting everything online.
Now you can check in the explorer, and they don't do KYC. I wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised
if Hyperliquid was the next FTX because damn, bro, we have done level.
It's not the first time when you have when you have when you have that that level of centralization
and control, and you you don't require KYC. All the people that that do have KYC
will get hacked eventually. Eventually, fund my bag, bro. Gotta be careful.
You think they're gonna get hacked? No, no, no, no, no. Um, I I mean, could could also
that that could that could also be another way they go out. The only way I see them being
the next FTX is if they get hacked. It's too big. To me, it's it's too big of a risk. Like.
Like I would, I wouldn't actually. Yeah, actually, I fully agree with Phil.
If someone reverse engineers the node, finds a major vulnerability, and is able to take, yeah, yeah,
it's not even about reverse engineering the node. It's just about like there are.
I know for a fact there's some admin keys somewhere in there, and you just do what they did against
Axie Infinity. Oh yeah, yeah, right. You just are like, I'm a. You apply as like a North Korean
dude, and you say I'm going to work here, and then six months later, like six six hundred mil
is gone. Oh shit! Yeah, no. I always like. I mean, I don't. I don't know if if you know about the.
How they they were going they were going to to get into the Linux kernel the the Korean hacker
I don't remember all the details but there are people working and making reputation for
two five years and then five years later they they deploy a silent uh silent virus right so
why wouldn't it happen with Hyperliquid once it gets big big enough
there could there could be already people in there yeah. Yeah, but but it also you also have
the more centralized you are. Like this is why I think hyperliquid will never decentralize
because the more centralized you are, the more power you have to prevent. If you're just like an ad,
like a multisig or something, then you can't really do anything if shit goes bad.
But if you have like you know a ton of multisigs, and at the end of the day to withdraw funds out
of hyperliquid, right? You have some waiting period. Then you have like. A freezing key somewhere.
You have all these measures that you can put in place, just like a centralized exchange
like Coinbase, right? Like if if North Korea hacked Coinbase, all the money wouldn't just disappear,
right? Coinbase would be totally fine because there's like a million processes in place to get money
out. It would take like infinite amounts of time to withdraw money that
that you know nothing would happen. And so I think that, I mean, maybe right now Hyperliquid is in
a state where, yeah, that could happen. But you, they could definitely fix it and and like have
more custody and and more like separate keys and have a freezing key and have it
so that if you want to withdraw, you have to wait two days and and all that other shit. That
and this is why all the Ethereum L2s refuse to decentralize. It's not because it's impossible.
It's because the economic incentives. For them, are if I decentralize, I lose my sequencer revenue,
and if I decentralize, I can't do anything if shit goes bad, right? Like the the whole
they're keeping the admin key because Ethereum contracts are so complicated,
especially for L two settlement, that they just like there could be a bug somewhere,
and some attacker could have a double spend, and that's that's like what you're what
you're describing for Ethereum L two is the same logic for batcher based dexes. Yeah,
but batcher based taxes don't have the same protect. Like with Ethereum L two,
they want the multisig because they you want to prevent shit. Like if something really bad happens,
they want to be able to stop it. Batchers can't. They can't stop anything.
All they can do is process order. Yeah, they very well. They can. They can instead.
They they can because because the batchers are the only one executing the contract. Usually,
but if there's if there's an exploit, it's too late, right? They just do it once and it's over.
If if there is an exploit on the sequencer also on Ethereum. So the Ethereum thing takes everything.
Takes that's the reason they have the seven day delay. Like if you exploit the sequencer,
you might do it and like have the sequencer include a double spend. But there's
seven days for everyone to see that that's happening, and for like one of the other 50 freezing
keys to just freeze the whole protocol and stop everything. Yeah, there are. There are.
I agree with you. There are better security measures here. And here it's just yeah,
it's just that's it. It's swapping. That's it. But our our ducks has been extremely safe, right?
Because nobody executes the contract, of course. People have tried to do some different things,
and it's it's fairly hardened, and so I mean it's extremely safe. I would say
we've never we've never really had an issue. People did try and do some stuff,
but we you know we've hardened our our batcher to to wear it is very secure. So it's John,
you got it. You gotta you gotta pick a niche. You gotta say I'm gonna be the I want to be
a decentralized AMM or I want to be a centralized AMM and be cheaper and faster.
I would just do that. I think that like a lot of the time, crypto is a problem
of like I'm gonna build out like this huge smart contract thing that's super complicated,
and then at the end of the day, just like. Multi sig or some other bullshit
like that handles everything, and it's like, what's the point? Yeah, I mean,
our niche is going to be. You can pick a happy middle ground. You can say I want to be a media,
I want to be a medium decentralized, I want to be non custodial,
and I want to be you know permission batching or non permission batching or whatever, right? Yeah,
I mean, our dex is is is fast right now. It's clean. It's cheap. Like it's yeah,
it's in the middle ground, and the rewards are great, and it's a hundred percent revenue share,
and that should be good enough. For the dex, but we're building on top of the dex.
The dex is just DeFi infrastructure for the capital inflows that we want to support.
It's always just been a piece to the puzzle. So the most, the biggest takeaway I want to get is
you are not competing. You are not competing with Gravity. You guys are not competing.
We are on the same team. If we don't recognize that, this ecosystem. Yeah,
I I I like the ecosystem of products. Different ecosystem of different products that interact with
each other. But he likes punking us. And and and I kind of like it. That's his stick.
That's that's that's how. Yeah, that's the marketing. I like Michaela. That was the index. I like.
I read the stuff. I, you know, it's. I I actually. It's gotta live. Yeah, I lived in France for
almost two years too, Michaela. So I've got the. Is Michaela French? I thought you were Italian,
bro. I thought you were Italian. I hate you, Michaela. Oh my God, dude! I am so the French.
You're cooked now. Michele, Michele, Michele! Michele is the Luigi to your Mario.
You can hear it in his accent, man. It's amì, amàrio. Mi piace la. Well, you know,
in southern France, France, the accent sounds a little closer to Italian.
The libra di queste fu in el mare. Michele knows. Sorry, buddy. He said, "No, I agree.
We should all, we should all, we should all be friends, and realize that there's not enough pie,
and you should be building interoperability between your protocols. Everyone should be connecting
all their protocols to everyone else, because that the only way an ecosystem works is if the rails
are there and you have a product of interoperable, like not only from like a UX perspective,
but also think of it from a liquidity perspective. Like arbitrage needs to be fluid.
You need everything to be connected for for." The ratio, the price ratio of assets to be liquid,
right? If you don't have fluid arbitrage, it doesn't matter how good your dex is.
Liquidity is going to suck dick. Price is going to go up. And having having
multiple dexes is more decentralized as well. Like it's multiple different niches.
That's what I was. Everyone's got to. Everyone's got to find their niche and and take that.
Your generic VC dexes that they should. Learn to innovate with all their
millions of dollars because John, John, they're on your team. They're on yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're on your team. If you if you don't if if you don't recognize that we are NGMI, right?
If you don't work to connect your protocol to theirs, we are NGMI. It's not happening.
Not gonna make. We cannot have. You ain't gonna make. No matter how good the application.
And it's not about whether or not you like them. You don't have to ever like them, right?
The two of them have made guard in USDTX. Maybe stop talking. You said some.
You said some crazy shit, bro. Especially in spaces, you go off on these people, and so like,
what do you expect? And no, no, no. Like I'm chill with you. I'm just saying, like,
it is what it is. I know. You you can feel some type of way, but for the greater good,
you gotta chill. You gotta not make those statements, and you gotta reach out and say, "Hey,
you got your nemesis, bro. You got your nemesis, and I've got my nemesis. And guess what?
You hate your nemesis, yeah, but my nemesis, my nemesis, my nemesis is not gonna make the eco
the DAP ecosystem flourish and make my product succeed, right? Iagon is not gonna make.
I don't need there. We go, bro. Diggard to Iagon is not gonna benefit me, right?
You connecting your DAP to the others is gonna benefit you and everybody.
It's gonna the benefit Cardano. Bro, C swap top three decks on Cardano, bro. Let's fucking go, bro.
Now that there are another another amount of people in the space, I would like to announce again
that Iagon CTO runs stake pools as a service and tells the people that he runs it for to pretend
that they are single stake pool operators because it will get them more stake.
And and like also tells them that if they pay for his service, he will give them increased luck
in block production. So this is these are the marketing statements and. Of the CTO,
and I I hope that you guys you guys think about Iagon and the promises of Iagon through that light,
and also think you know you see CF posting wow I you can say what you want about Nav
but he's definitely aligned with with Cardano yep would the CTO of a company that's aligned with
Cardano be running a single quote unquote single SPOs as a service as a multiple operator
running hundreds of pools on the chain I don't know if that's aligned with Cardano.
I just need some treasury money. Your music. Let's add a little different angle here.
What you want to talk about? No diversity or what? Blink, blink, for dingo. What's up? Dingo.
You know, music. I was just talking to Seba today, and he's like, I was trying to get Starstream
into Amaru, and you know, I was like, I was like, you're on the. I was like,
you picked the wrong horse, my friend. You gotta go with Dingo. Is full steam ahead. I was talking.
I was glazing you guys like crazy about how impressed I was with this the small size relative
to Amaro. How much have you? How much you guys have achieved is absolutely phenomenal.
And when I talk about all the time, teams picking up the shovel, Blink Labs is an absolute unit
of a team that has been picking up the shovel immensely. Right, you want something done.
You don't just wait for a Maru and and whatever the fuck to do it. You do it yourselves.
And you guys have been a huge testament to that. So I have nothing but applause for. I mean,
I was checking it out. I was running it. It is it is beautiful. How far it's come.
We got another release out five minutes ago too. Like absolutely unbelievable work.
And I hope that you. I hope that the ecosystem is not absolutely brain dead
and manages to support that proposal because no one is as close. Bro, if it doesn't get funded,
though, we're all fucked, bro. No, if it doesn't get funded this time,
I've already stated that I'm going to be proposing it again. I'm probably going to be talking to
the people who voted no or didn't vote at all and figuring out why first. But else,
I'll repropose it because that it's it's on. I mean, if Amaro, Amaro, you it can't like
if one passes this, Dingo definitely has to pass because it is absurd how much
how far advanced that this has gotten. And I'm pro. I'm pro Amaru as well. Like, it's not me. No,
that's fine. And everyone can have their opinion. You know, Riley, I'm I'm for Amaru.
I'm totally fine to do a Rust node, but we we cannot do a Rust node and not go
and get a node way closer. It can't. You cannot have that. It cannot just be.
We do Amaru because there's a ton of marketing behind it, and we don't. We're on the same page.
We're on a hundred percent the same page, Phil. I think that if you have one, you need the other.
It's got to be Dingo, right? It this is the farthest, by far, the farthest along. Uh,
like absolutely insane the amount of work that they put into it and how far it's come.
I just cannot see a world where this doesn't get funded. It needs if we're going to have
one alternative node in the relatively short future, it's going to be Dingo, right?
It will be first to market. I can say that, guaranteed. So now, Esco, I don't think
I have to say anything. There we go. Mic drop, dude. That's like the opposite of Iagon. Like, yeah.
Dingo spelled backwards is almost Iagon. Yeah. All right. But no, seriously. That's why.
That's
why I love it so much. It's just everything that I appreciate. The opposite of everything I hate.
I feel like Ognid doesn't sound like Iagon. Bro, bro, Riley, you do know though
that if you reprop repropose, you need a hundred k either, right? But you sold all your ADA.
I got you, Riley. I got you. Well, I'm not even stressing. I was thinking about it, and like,
you can just buy 100k spot ADA, open up a short position worth 100k ADA,
and then you're delta neutral. What I've been doing for three years in my before we had stablecoins,
when everyone was like. It's it's impossible to run a business on Cardano when all your money is in
ADA and your runway fluctuates by six months. And so I was doing that delta neutral thing way
before we had stables or anything. Well, and when the market's not complete shit,
like you actually end up making money on the funding fees, and you get the staking. Yeah. Yeah.
Hear hear me out. The what if there was like a DAO that allows you to rent 100 ADA,
you pay like 500 ADA to make proposals. What do you think about that? I have that DAP.
I don't know if you saw that. Clark, Chris said you guys need to talk, and you should build it.
Let's fucking go. The DAP is already built. It's in my GitHub. Oh shit! Proposal alone.
Someone's got to go host it, but yeah, it's done. Let's fucking go. Like two,
the second governance came out on Cardano. I was like, let me figure out how to do this,
and that's just been sitting there on my GitHub. You, anyone can put up a hundred K. You,
you deposit it into a contract. And they, anyone can come along, pick up any of those UTXOs,
spend them to do a governance proposal with the return address set to the person who deposit
who deposited that, and you pay like 500 data, and then bro, that's so good idea, bro. Data. Again,
and this works really well for people who want to employ delta neutral strategies
because they're just able to fucking at least when the market is either flat or going up. Like
whenever there's a level of optimism, you have positive funding rates,
and so then you end up having the the shorts earning money, right? And so it's Hugely profitable,
and and I think Phil, if you didn't already read what I said in the group chat,
you should read what I said in the group chat.
I don't want to say it here because Esco will get mad at me. But oh, there's the plan.
You think that's a good idea? I think it's a good idea. Yo, this space isn't recorded, is it?
It is recorded, but it's fine. I mean, I think that I think that I've been vague enough to where,
if anyone did pick up on it, they probably don't have the time or ambition to to wanna fulfill it.
Why are you Why do you think I'm talking about you? I'm on all this medication.
I've been embarrassing myself. The bachelor went. I'm gonna pin it to my fucking timeline.
This space is gonna be pinned at the very top of my timelines, so people will listen.
I feel like it's been a good space. Well. First place edition. Yes, first place. Hey, hold on!
Random applause. Rylan, Rylan, and the Taylor. You're describing Athena. You're describing. I know,
I know, but but Athena doesn't have. Athena pays yield, doesn't it, or is it just growing constantly
in the stake Athena? Yeah. Oh. Oh, so they've got the dollar separate. Yeah. You have dollar,
and then that makes sense. Okay. Yeah, I like. I've been begging. So basically, I want to do that,
but I want to do it here. Implement that here. I've been begging, begging. Yeah, yeah,
let's fucking bro. I had an idea, a similar idea, bro, and and people can also like borrow
the deposit, and you you earn a little bit more API. This is Clark. I literally I wrote a proposal
for this in Catalyst for when I working on the Jed team. It was called Trinity.
Is it literally that? It's oh my fucking let's fucking do it, guys! You can borrow.
You have the underlying collateral that can be borrowed. Yep, yep. That's that's the collateral.
Most of the pool is totally inactive all the time, and so you can just you can fix
the the capital inefficiency problem of any pooled protocol by just having the pool be accessible
for borrowing. And then the lending, like the it's gonna be like the best lending.
The the annual rate that you're paying for taking out that loan varies over time, right?
Like it's not like a fixed rate when you take the loan. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah,
you can do whatever you want because you can. If you have a pool, the problem is AMMs.
Like eighty percent of the pool is inactive, so if you're only lending thirty percent of the pool,
you can really just do whatever the fuck you want, right? Because There's no,
there's no chance the pool will ever hit that. Like that, that capital will ever become active
unless like one of the tokens just completely becomes valueless. Like there's like
a stablecoin pair, and one of them becomes insolvent and worth zero dollars. Yo,
stop giving our ideas out to everybody, you guys. We've already been working.
I've been telling all my ideas are free. I want everyone to. We all work together, right, Phil?
There's no competition. It's for everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. True. I think it's for the ecosystem.
Like I don't even want. That's right. A lot of these products don't even need a secondary token.
For governance, and so it's like let's just try and make as much stuff
that actually benefits Cardano as possible. That actually makes money. And right, right,
but it's it's not just about making money for ourselves. It's about making yeah for the
for the ecosystem. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Go reach out,
go reach out to volume, and he he has a full team, and this is something they want to do.
So go go reach out, and I might I've been trying to help them get this to market for a long time,
so. But realfi, realfi, from my understanding, is adopting the Athena model. Riley,
are you familiar with what? No, that's that's not what I understood either. It's a different,
it's a different animal, right? Yeah, it's real world. Realfi is also cool because any protocol
that actually generates real yield is cool, and realfi has real yield.
Like it has money coming in from. No money. They changed it since you because I talked to a new hire
like three weeks. No, I I know that I work. I'm like one of the. Feedback architects
of the protocol. I've reviewed the contracts. I know. Do you know Bradley?
Getting another scenario where I'm arguing like when when USDCX was released
and like people are telling me it's going to be a programmable token and I have to sit in the space
and be like, no, no, it's not. I'm the guy. I'm making it. It's definitely not.
Have you met Bradley Allgood? I know a thousand names. I'm sure I've interfaced with them
at some point. That's a great last name. He's a new. He's a new hire. He he has like ten years
of experience in tokenization. He's he's like he's a super neat guy.
You should um you should get to know him. You'd say he's all. You'd say he's all good. Yeah,
he he he was on Ethereum and stuff before this. So he's like an he's like one of those experts.
You know, he's like an expert. Yeah. I was just gonna say yeah, I like his last name. Yeah. Yeah,
yeah, he's all good. Anyways, I gotta go pick up my daughter. I'll I'll see if you guys
are around later. Safe travels, bro. Bro, every every time I have an idea,
I'm gonna run it through Phil now, bro. That's a good idea. Yeah, I mean,
the the hardest part with Phil, and this is something that sometimes people get angry about
because they're not very compassionate. But Phil is sometimes hard to get hold of,
and it's because he is busy all the time. And the only time where he has any time to talk to people,
he's like, I'm gonna jump in a space where I can actually like enjoy myself for a few moments,
right? At least I hope that's how you feel. And he's usually working then.
He's probably working right now, bro. Right. Yeah, that's fair. I'm in people.
I'm in meetings six hours a day, six hours every. There are just times when I have.
I'm already someone who's very introverted, and my social battery is very low,
and so it's just like I can't. I at some point I'm just like I can't. You know.
The thing about now though is like you can like work, and then because of like the clanker,
you know, you have some time to talk. You know. Right. I mean, this has made working in
spaces a thousand times more efficient because it takes like ten seconds to write a prompt,
and then I just sit there for two minutes. Yep, same for me. I be with the clunker right now.
I'm sure that the shit I'm looking at, you guys would have fixed it like two hours ago,
and instead I'm over here still spinning my wheels. Oh my goodness, this is too fucking funny, dude.
But it's fun, you know. When you do fix something at the end, you're like, okay,
you feel all empowered. What are you working on, Esco? Um. On better still,
but I recently are you working on the UI? No, no, no, no. So you know we got quite a bit a bit
of the ways down, and then but everything was running on the dev's team's infra, right?
Like their Versela account, all of all of it was their accounts. So, um, like uh, like two weeks ago
or so, um, I like went on and created all my own accounts, so then I could do like
the API key rotations and then hosting, you know, on our own and so on and so on.
So then you know could be more in control of like PRs and all sorts of things, and surprisingly.
I actually like. I was very kind of proud of the situation because a lot of it, a lot of it works,
but there is like this configs in in like OOS and several other things that I still need to do,
and and I'm like sorting those things out like one at a time. But yeah,
everything is pretty good progress here in like a week's time. Are you using the playwright skill?
What's that? Download the playwright skill. Ask your clanker to get playwright skill.
Was I asked you like a million questions? No, so it allows you to like an automated browser. No,
yeah, just it it allows it to like test your app by itself. Like it'll open the browser. Oh shit!
You can hold on, hold on. One more time. Let me write this down. Playwright skill. What the?
It's made by Microsoft, by the way. C sharp. It's extremely like it'll open like you just tell it
like open playwright and like test like after you ask it to implement some feature,
tell it to test the feature with playwright, and it'll like open that.
It'll open the browser on your computer, and you can watch it click the buttons, and then it'll see.
Playwright, as in like P L A Y W R I T E W R I G H T. Oh, W R what? P L A Y W R I G H T. Oh, okay.
Boom. Yeah, that would be important. You can you can even tell it like screenshot the the app
and then save it to somewhere so you can see what. If you use Codex, you can also use
the front end skill from Codex. Or if you use Claude, just tell it to install the front end skill.
It's only two thirty four here, but it feels so much fucking later. Is the is
the Argentina timezone, bro? Yeah, I know. For you, I guess it probably feels earlier, huh? Yeah,
bro. Yeah, it's like five a. M. Here, and I'm still awake, bro. Yeah,
whereas here it's two thirty five p. M. , and I feel like it's six thirty five p. M. So,
I wonder how John's doing. He's on a date with your girl. No, not mine. Clark's. Oh shit! No, no,
no, no, no. That was um. No, that was um. That was um. What's his name, bro? Hadi, Hadi's girl, bro.
That's Hadi's girl. Straight up, bro. Chill, bro. It was a good time. You will be back.
It was a good time. I'm. I'm honestly. I think I'm gonna go stay in Argentina for like five months.
Uh, because it's cheap. It's awesome. Uh, it's like I. I. I wouldn't mind being in Texas
or Miami either, but at the same time, like. Argentina, you can get a decent room for, you know,
like like a decent one-bedroom apartment for 500 bucks. And if you want to go into a nice place
and get one, 800 bucks. So it's the same price as I'm paying here. And right now,
the only reason I'm able to get that cheaper rent is because my dad owns the fucking building.
So it's, you know, yeah. Everyone's friendly too, right? There, bro. Building or anything,
but just like I have, yeah. Riley, I looked at a house down the street from Santi,
and it was like fucking marble floors and everything. The beautiful curved stairway.
It was like four bedrooms, four bathrooms. It was fucking gorgeous. But like three hundred bucks
a month. Small yard, admittedly, and it was like three hundred fifty thousand. Yep. No, for real.
We're losing music. You can get a really nice place down there, and it's not too expensive.
The food's not too expensive. Services aren't too expensive. Like honestly,
I. I don't want to move down there full time. I want to still maintain residency here in
the United States. I think, or at least for now. But I do think that it sounds awesome to go spend
a couple months down there, and long enough to where it'd be worthwhile to bring my cat with me.
You leaving, Dima? You can't be leaving.
Can you even talk right now? It shows a blue dot next to your name. I see you waving. But
Dima said, "I gotta go whip the clanker too." Yo, yo got me yapping up in here.
I haven't heard him in a minute, and it shows a blue dot next to his Mexico host. Bro,
I like how Esco and Demos have become like developers. Demos, go refresh your Twitter and come back
or something. I'm not a co-host. Claude is. Claude is my co- my co- I'm proud of you guys, bro.
I just tell them things. Right now, Claude is working through Web3 auth. You know,
getting all these. Yo, Esco, try and kick Demos from co-host or something so we can bring back up.
I think he's fucking glitched out, bro. Okay, let's see.
He's stuck. Requested. Yeah, he definitely was stuck in the metaverse.
Waterline, just just waving at you guys. Y'all just chatting while I'm dying.
But it was like a doppelganger version of me was like keeping me in some
like other fucking parallel reality while you guys thought that was the real Demos. Listen, um.
Yeah, first of all, the clanker never leaves. It's always on. I have four IDEs right now,
four instances of Visual Studio, doing different things. And on each one,
I have like four different codexes. Yo, there's this new plugin someone just recently made.
I can't pin it with my phone here, but I'll put it in the comments. It lets you interface.
It lets you. It lets Claude talk to Codex completely from the same terminal.
No need to have them running together. And it's a plugin. And once you install it,
you could just tell Claude, like, "Hey, tell Codex to like do yada yada,
" and it'll like run both of them in parallel within the same terminal window.
It's fucking sick as hell. The guy has like one million impressions on that post.
He just put it out. But Asko, I was gonna say. Since you had everything was on someone else's infra,
right? Because I had a similar situation with RG, right, Raiders Gold,
and it's like you want to double check if a you've switched the OAuth integration, right?
So that's that's literally what I'm doing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because that has like
account configurations, and and like what was the name? I don't know. It was telling me early like,
and it's most likely connected to their Supabase or their Firestore. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
And that is everything else is like is cooking, but yeah, those. Let me see. Get you the
and it comes. Out of the box, I believe, but get you the MCP. Not only that,
but MCP integrate your superbase on your Claude. That way, Claude can just comb through the database
itself and know what's wrong with it at all times. Yo guys, if you're using Axios, guys,
uninstall that shit. It got hacked. Yeah, I saw that. That was pretty crazy.
People are about to lose a ton of money. Axios was just like wait what what did you just say? Oh,
I don't. If you're using like a dependency called Axios, bro, remove that shadow. Check everything.
Everything uses Axios. Yeah, I'm I'm scared, bro. Like I'm scared, bro.
Dependency nightmare because literally every package has a trillion dependencies, and even
if you're not using Axios, something you're using is definitely using Axios.
So it's like impossible to develop anything in JavaScript without someone using Axios. So,
and that's why I'm in .net, bro. That's why you gotta pin all your dependencies. Like,
just I just haven't never update, and and you get the warnings about from npm of oh this is unsafe.
You gotta update. I never run npm fix because it's always shit that's new that that's broken, right?
Because it's like some that's exactly what happened with axios. It like happens for like a day,
and then the fucking the release whoever is building it recognizes it's an issue,
and then they they fix the issue. But like if you're always just using latest
and not pinning dependencies, then you're just gonna get fucked. Yep. That's what happened to
the iota wallet like years ago. By the way, like there was like a supply chain attack,
and everyone got fucking robbed. Um, they got drained. So just be careful, guys. What wallet? Uh,
the iota wallet. Um, from years back. Forgot the name. Who's wallet? Who didn't? Who? You know,
you know, iota the the the what was that? The DLT distributed ledger. Oh, iota. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Their wallet got hacked in that same. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'll tell you.
Every time a wallet gets hacked, it is the it is the wallet team. They're if you're storing
private keys, you're not doing this. It's just not you can't you can't have a situation
where the wallet gets hacked by accident. It's always just like they're storing private keys
and then they you know at some point they have a critical mass of users
and they're like wow we've got like you know fifty billion dollars people that aren't using
hardware wallets. Okay, now it's time to get hacked and then you never see these devs again.
Like on private island, some they never ever show up. It's the same with my Algorand.
Like the people behind my algorithm, they were like, "Oh, I'm so sorry, we got hacked.
" And these devs never worked on algorithm; they're never anywhere. You don't;
they just don't work anymore because they're all multi-billionaires on private.
This is what scares me about the closed wallets that we have on Cardano, bro. No fun. Yeah,
Eternal is a nightmare to me. It's a security nightmare. Get that critical mass, and then boom.
I mean, the the amount of money you're talking about is just so absurd that like,
it's even the most ethical person ever, you know, it will tempt you. You're looking at like hundreds
of millions of dollars just as a wallet. Well, on that positive note, I got to bounce.
It's nice chatting with you guys. Dinner time. Cheers, man. I guess I gotta get my money. I guess I,
I guess I gotta get my money out of the fuck, the fuck out of Eternal. Thanks, Phil. Yeah,
use use an open source lace. Lace is a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really,
a lot of the developers kind of trash that as being like kind of wonky. I'd I'd rather have
clunkier UX than the ability for my funds. Here's here's what I'll here's what I'll say.
I'm on both, but there it's in both, but I use them interchangeably. So change,
get your seed phrase out. Get a new wallet. Move your funds to a new seed phrase and.
Only put it in an open source wallet. I mean, and also never treat a hot wallet
like a fucking bank account in Web3. That's for your cold storage, right?
You should always treat that shit like the wallet you leave your house with.
Put a couple bucks that you're willing to spend for the week, and that's that. Well, on that note,
all right, guys, thanks. I always get weirded out when I I see like a Web3 whale, and they're like,
"Yeah, look, it's in my MetaMask," and I'm like, "RIP, bro." At that point,
it's like you just you just set a timer for yourself because it's only it's only a matter of time.
They're coming for you now. My problem with like hardware wallets are like they're like
products too, right? Like hardware wallets are also shitters. Don't use them. Yeah,
use hardware wallet is just like a more expensive, shittier version of just a crappy laptop.
Just yeah, exactly. That's why I have like a Raspberry Pi and I have my own hardware wallet from it.
Well, what about the ones with air gap? Well, that's exactly what we're talking about.
Those just get a crappy laptop. It's cheaper. It's like getting a hundred dollar Chromebook,
and in fact, you can buy one that from Amazon that doesn't even have the internet. You just buy
a hundred dollar Chromebook from Amazon, and that's the best. There's a Chromebook without internet.
Yeah. There's there's everything, man. Just Google like laptop no internet,
and you'll get a really shitty one hundred fifty dollar. It'll be the best hardware wallet ever.
I just got a Raspberry Pi, right? I turned it into Al Cardano hardware wallet.
You still have to like make sure that the software runs good and everything,
and then you have to like ah that's true that's true. Like with using a laptop,
you you still want to in order to avoid any potential like, I mean no you just remove you remove it
though right physically you could you could take a laptop that has no internet
and it doesn't matter how insecure and shitty the laptop is. Do you use QRs to communicate
or do you use USB? You you right right so so do you try to make sure that the key material
the key material is not there when you're using a USB that you're connecting to other devices
that are connected to the internet or do you just not Think about that. No,
you just get like a kali USB, like the the ones designed to carry malware,
and you just you just you know bring it to the other computer, and the computer's airgapped,
and you're totally fine. Like if I if I have if I get a transaction right,
if I want to sign a transaction, I just go. I download the transaction,
put it into a USB on my my main computer. I take out that USB, I put it into my airgap computer.
I sign the transaction, I put it back in to the USB, and I take that USB
and put it in my computer again and send it. I have an extra step, and it's probably just
me being fucking stupid, but I like so I transfer the transaction to the airgapped computer,
and then I transfer the key to the computer, sign it, delete the key,
and then once it's removed from the system, I insert the USB that I'm moving it back
with the moving. You don't have it automated, Roby. There's like a transaction signer in the
in the thing. You just send it some keyboard. And spit out some C board.
I just I have the literally just when I stick in a USB, it has a boot.
Its boot service just reads it and and signs it. And yeah, exactly. Yeah. Interesting.
I do that too. Yeah. But like a serial communication kind of thing, you pass in the C board bytes.
Yeah, yeah. You don't even. No, I don't. I don't do that currently. That that sounds like a. Yeah.
That sounds like an interesting. Because it doesn't even take the file off the USB, right?
It just does a write to the memory of the USB to sign it. Yeah, yeah, right.
Again, this is all super nerdy, but even if you're a non-tech person, don't buy a Ledger.
You're just being scammed. Just buy a shitty laptop, and you'll be fine.
You you you could be the most non-technical person ever. Just get a shitty laptop
and get a wallet on it, and that's it. And you just you just sign transactions from that.
Ledger. Too bad that they're still dumb dumb enough to still get socially engineered, though.
Like Ledger and all these like hardware wallets as a service. They're like in the industry,
so they got you know they know the value of the shit that they're doing. I'm not.
I would not be surprised at all if Ledger Ledger is always like, uh, we're closed source,
but we promise we can't turn on like the admin access unless you unless you enable it.
It's like okay. What do you think about those other ones though? Like those those gap
those air gapped one. Like what what's the one? I think it's just called Cold Wallet
or something like that, and it's like see through and it looks like a calculator. You seen that one?
No, I have. That's probably just a mini computer. That's probably what that is.
It's probably just like a Raspberry Pi in a in a see through case. Just like some PCB.
That's what someone should do. Someone should make a hardware wallet business,
just putting Raspberry Pis in a see-through case and selling with a USB port to it,
and just have it so that it boots, it auto signs stuff that you plug into it,
and then just sell those. Yeah, bro. All right, guys, you heard it here. Ask for funding.
New new project about to drop. Treasury. We're gonna obviously. Seven million. We're gonna. Yeah,
we're gonna obviously for no good reason add a token to it with a vesting cliff.
Where every time you sign a transaction, you get air drop, bro. We will certainly share revenue
with everybody that supports our initial launch. We're only going to sell
about twenty thousand units at seventeen hundred dollars apiece, and then we will deliver,
depending on
current conditions and manufacturing in Taiwan. Don't worry about that though; we'll solve. I
think I might take a nap for a little bit. It's jet lag or something. I mean.
I feel like it's way later than it is. How was Arg? Was the coolest thing you saw in
Argentina Gummy Worm? Was there anything else I should be? Um, in terms of yeah,
like I I think that was one of the the cooler things I saw. Um, that I I was sitting in on. Uh,
you already know about Blaster, so that would be. Besides besides Santi singing like a rock star.
Yes yes the the whole event was wonderful so I I wouldn't say like uh the most fun I had
was sitting through the the Gummy Worm presentation but I would say that that was probably
the most compelling demo. Um, and. It went really well with how they scheduled it because they had
the gummy worm presentation directly before the hydrosoa presentation, and given
that they're now sort of working together as one team, it just worked really well
and was structured in a way that you know flowed. And then George did a secondary presentation
going over sort of further details on hydrosoa the next day because they have the the second day
being sort of a open for Whoever wants to do presentations, right? And so there's a bunch of stuff
going on all at the same time. I don't think all the stuff on the second day was recorded,
but I know a couple of things were. And everything on the first day was recorded. But yeah,
I would definitely say that the gummy worm hydrosoa stuff was like the most compelling outside
of Blaster, and and probably on par, if not above Blaster. It was really exciting to see what
they're doing. Trying to think, what what else really stood out to me in terms of presentations.
Well, I got to see the layers presentation in the Node Diversity workshop. Okay, I didn't,
I didn't actually go to the Node Diversity workshop. I, I think that yeah,
that that probably was also really impactful. Um, I ended up sleeping in while they were doing that.
So, and I mean, I'm, I'm not working on a node,
so it didn't really make a whole lot of sense for me to be there anyway.
Can't wait for the layer twos though, Midgard gummy worm. Every app should like run in one
of those shit, or else. What's Esco doing? Clanking away, but my my fam's about to get here,
and I want to take them to dinner and stuff, so sure they don't gotta do like anything. So yeah, no,
it's been a good chat. I'll try and like whip this shit in here a little bit more.
Probably gonna end up asking help at some point. But yeah, man, life is doing good.
Hope everybody's doing good. Good conversation, and vote for Dingo or be a pirate peg leg
waiting to get kicked and then soft work again. And Jerome, why do why do you guys
keep forgetting Jerome? You're already getting the bag, Mikela. You're like prodigy child
of somebody over there. I don't know. You're gonna get the bag regardless, my boy. Chill.
We're over here. They're underprivileged. Their efforts. Bo Dingo, Andrew Olmo, and Anti Gravity.
How much shit you got going on, Mikela? Mikela's going for the big bag.
He's releasing everything at once. He said, "I'm gonna fucking just bombard this damn treasury.
" You you you you guys talk. I I built. I'm joking. I'm joking. No, no, by anyways. No, I'm. Yeah,
no, it's been fun. Um, we'll catch up. I'm sure tomorrow or something. Same shit.
Get some rest, Riley. Been traveling and in jail. Yo, centralized. All right, later, dudes.
